Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
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22-06-2016, 02:31 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
nope, there isn't any written texts that are by eye witnesses

all accounts that exist are from second hand... basically thy were written after playing a several decade long game of telephone, this is why people write things down, human memory just cant' be trusted as its a proven fact the people have a remarkable tendency of miss-remembering, understating/overstating, excluding or including matter into the original

according to historians the earliest of the gospels were written decades after the alleged resurrection... so the details of the event that were passed on orally were compiled to form these books

hell even the gospels don't agree on every detail, one of em says dead people rose up from the grave and were wondering around the place... pretty sure a lot of people would've written down the occurrence of a sudden zombie apocalypse
but they didn't and the other gospels don't even confirm it
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22-06-2016, 04:08 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(21-06-2016 06:13 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(20-06-2016 01:14 PM)purpledaisies Wrote:  Nope not one shred. This is not my work. I can't remember who wrote this but it was a member here. I saved it because I can't remember a lot of info at a time so I go back to this stuff to remind me. A I want to think the person that wrote thus it has helped me out so much.

Matthew 27:51-53
King James Version (KJV)
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

wow...so zombies...freaking ZOMBIES crawled out of the tombs and "appeared unto many"...and yet...yet...not one literate person at the time thought this was noteworthy enough to write down...nope 50 years later voila! the story is written down after having had this urban legend passed down from person to person...or perhaps completely made up at the time the BS story was fabricated. hmmmmm now a thinking person would suspect that someone at the time would have thought...wow, zombies! and put it into the written record...nope, not...one...word..in ...contemporary history.

Perhaps Philo of alexandria who was a reknown and respected historian who resided in this area during the time of jesus?...nope...but then of course, he never even mentions jesus

The early years of the Roman Republic is one of the most historically documented times in history. One of the writers alive during the time of Jesus was Philo-Judaeus (sometimes known as Philo of Alexandria).

Philo was born before the beginning of the Christian era, and lived until long after the reputed death of Christ. He wrote an account of the Jews covering the entire time that Christ is said to have existed on earth. He was living in or near Jerusalem when Christ’s miraculous birth and the Herodian massacre occurred. He was there when Christ made his triumphal entry into Jerusalem. He was there when the crucifixion happened with its attendant earthquake, supernatural darkness and resurrection of the dead took place – when Christ himself rose from the dead and in the presence of many witnesses ascended into heaven.

These amazing marvelous events which must have filled the world with amazement, had they really occurred, were all unknown to him. It was Philo who developed the doctrine of the Logos, or Word, and although this Word incarnate dwelt in that very land and in the presence of multitudes revealed himself and demonstrated his divine powers, Philo saw it not, nor apparently even heard of it.

Philo might be considered the investigative reporter of his day. He was there on location during the early first century, talking with people who should have remembered or at least heard the stories, observed, taking notes, documenting. He reported nothing about Jesus.

Odd...

Perhaps Justus..There was also a historian named Justus of Tiberius who was a native of Galilee, the homeland of Jesus. He wrote a history covering the time when Christ supposedly lived. This history is now lost, but a ninth century Christian scholar named Photius had read it and wrote: “he [Justus] makes not the least mention of the appearance of Christ, of what things happened to him, or other wonderful works that he did.”

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22-06-2016, 04:16 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
And thus we have what is claimed to be the most important message ever given to the human race, and the Messenger couldn't recruit one single literate person to write his words down first person.
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22-06-2016, 04:33 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-06-2016 04:16 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  And thus we have what is claimed to be the most important message ever given to the human race, and the Messenger couldn't recruit one single literate person to write his words down first person.

Free will! Laughat

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22-06-2016, 04:45 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-06-2016 04:33 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(22-06-2016 04:16 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  And thus we have what is claimed to be the most important message ever given to the human race, and the Messenger couldn't recruit one single literate person to write his words down first person.

Free will! Laughat
Do we need to include your willie in this thread? Consider
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22-06-2016, 06:35 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(20-06-2016 12:11 PM)seoq Wrote:  I have a few questions and I apologize in advance if they're hard to understand.

I'm wondering if there are any contemporary accounts of Jesus. To be more specific, were there any people who lived during his time who were close to the areas his ministry (supposedly) visited who should have written about him or told others about him? How about people who were not so close but were known to write reliable accounts of what was happening in that region during that time? I'm also wondering if it's reasonable to expect that there should be non biblical contemporary accounts of him, considering that he (supposedly) preached to thousands and preformed miracles in front of many (possibly thousands)? Surely there were literate people who would have witnessed him first hand that would have wrote about him, and considering the nature of his ministry (legitimate miracles) even non literate people would have spread word about him that would have ended up being chronicled by others. Am I asking reasonable questions? I feel like they're obvious and I would appreciate it greatly if someone could take the time to help me understand why these things don't exist. I've asked Christians and was basically told that the accounts in the bible are sufficient to prove that he did in fact do the things written about him in the gospels (and so forth).

To be clear I'm asking for reliable contemporary accounts that didn't end up in the Bible or a part of Christian tradition. For example someone writing a letter to someone else about Jesus and what he was doing.

Thank you.


You should perhaps ask the other question. For the entire period of 1st Century Roman Palestine, how many works of contemporary writers of that time and place do we have? Meaning not just those who wrote about Jesus, but pretty much anyone in that period. The answer is only one, the writings of Josephus. And he mentions Jesus twice, one is the dispute portion of the Testimonium Flavianum, and the other in a undisputed portion where he writes of the death of James, stating he was his the brother of Jesus.

"“In no small measure this relates, again, to the problem of literacy in that time and place. Hardly anyone could write, and most of the people who could write did not produce writings that have survived from antiquity. As it turns out—this is as astounding as it is true—from Roman Palestine of the entire first century we have precisely one, only one, author of literary texts whose works have survived (by literary texts I mean literary books of any kind: fictional, historical, philosophical, scientific, poetic, political, you name it). That one author is Josephus. We have no others. What is equally striking, in all of our historical records we know the name of only one other author of such writings, a man named Justin of Tiberius; his books, obviously, have not survived.10”

Excerpt From: Bart D. Ehrman. “Did Jesus Exist?.” iBooks. https://itun.es/us/Vc9tA.l

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-06-2016, 07:12 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-06-2016 06:35 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  You should perhaps ask the other question. For the entire period of 1st Century Roman Palestine, how many works of contemporary writers of that time and place do we have? Meaning not just those who wrote about Jesus, but pretty much anyone in that period. The answer is only one, the writings of Josephus. And he mentions Jesus twice, one is the dispute portion of the Testimonium Flavianum, and the other in a undisputed portion where he writes of the death of James, stating he was his the brother of Jesus.

"“In no small measure this relates, again, to the problem of literacy in that time and place. Hardly anyone could write, and most of the people who could write did not produce writings that have survived from antiquity. As it turns out—this is as astounding as it is true—from Roman Palestine of the entire first century we have precisely one, only one, author of literary texts whose works have survived (by literary texts I mean literary books of any kind: fictional, historical, philosophical, scientific, poetic, political, you name it). That one author is Josephus. We have no others. What is equally striking, in all of our historical records we know the name of only one other author of such writings, a man named Justin of Tiberius; his books, obviously, have not survived.10”

Excerpt From: Bart D. Ehrman. “Did Jesus Exist?.” iBooks. https://itun.es/us/Vc9tA.l

Sorry, I'm confused. Are you saying that Josephus' account of Jesus is reliable and that it shouldn't be strange that few accounts of that time and place exist (thus making it more plausible that Jesus existed)?
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22-06-2016, 07:20 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-06-2016 07:12 AM)seoq Wrote:  Sorry, I'm confused. Are you saying that Josephus' account of Jesus is reliable and that it shouldn't be strange that few accounts of that time and place exist (thus making it more plausible that Jesus existed)?

Josephus Testimonium passage is not reliable and disputed, but his James/Jesus passage is reliable, and undisputed.

And I'm pointing out that it shouldn't be strange to find that we lack contemporary accounts of Jesus, when Josephus is primarily that only source we have for that entire time and place all together.

For comparison, take for what's arguably the most important Political figure of that time and place, Pilate, how many contemporary writings do we have of him?

In fact the writing we have that mention him anywhere, are Philo's, Josephus's, the NT writings, and we also have a mention of him in Tacitus, but only in reference to the death of Jesus.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-06-2016, 07:25 AM (This post was last modified: 22-06-2016 07:40 AM by seoq.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-06-2016 07:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Josephus Testimonium passage is not reliable and disputed, but his James/Jesus passage is reliable, and undisputed.

And I'm pointing out that it shouldn't be strange to find that we lack contemporary accounts of Jesus, when Josephus is primarily that only source we have for that entire time and place all together.

For comparison, take for what's arguably the most important Political figure of that time and place, Pilate, how many contemporary writings do we have of him?

In fact the writing we have that mention him anywhere, are Philo's, Josephus's, the NT writings, and we also have a mention of him in Tacitus, but only in reference to the death of Jesus.

And so you're saying that it isn't unreasonable to believe that Jesus existed?

Edit: Shouldn't we expect more contemporary accounts of Jesus to exist even if only few exist of Pilate (or other figures of that time and place) solely due to the nature of what Jesus was supposedly doing? That doesn't seem like too much to expect considering Jesus was (supposedly) performing miracles in front of hundreds, possibly thousands, and Pilate was a civil servant.
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22-06-2016, 07:47 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-06-2016 07:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Josephus Testimonium passage is not reliable and disputed, but his James/Jesus passage is reliable, and undisputed.

That is not true. The James/Jesus passage is disputed and you are incredibly dishonest to claim that it isn't.

Quote:And I'm pointing out that it shouldn't be strange to find that we lack contemporary accounts of Jesus, when Josephus is primarily that only source we have for that entire time and place all together.

More dishonesty. "primarily [the] only source"? Is it the only source or the primary source? Your evasive language is really tiresome.

Quote:For comparison, take for what's arguably the most important Political figure of that time and place, Pilate, how many contemporary writings do we have of him?

In fact the writing we have that mention him anywhere, are Philo's, Josephus's, the NT writings, and we also have a mention of him in Tacitus, but only in reference to the death of Jesus.

Comparisons of Jesus to Pilate are not meaningful. We would expect spotty records of Roman provincial officials. We would not expect that a divine being performing miracles witnessed by thousands would not be so widely recorded that no contemporary records would be left. The evidence is that the Jesus of the bible did not exist and if the character is based on somebody who did then that person was nothing special.

Seoq, see this thread for a lot of discussion about Josephus's writings and Tomasia's completely dishonest style of apologetics.

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