Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
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22-06-2016, 08:02 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-06-2016 07:47 AM)unfogged Wrote:  That is not true. The James/Jesus passage is disputed and you are incredibly dishonest to claim that it isn't.

No, it's almost universally considered authentic.

"Modern scholarship has almost universally acknowledged the authenticity of the reference to "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James"[13] and has rejected its being the result of later Christian interpolation.[14][33][1][2][17]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

Quote:More dishonesty. "primarily [the] only source"? Is it the only source or the primary source? Your evasive language is really tiresome.

He's the only writer who lived at that particular time and place whose writings we have. We also have the writings of Philo, who did live at that particular time, but several hundred miles away in Alexandria, not Roman-Palestine, who also mentioned Pilate in his writings, but not Jesus, or any other Roman-Palestine messiah claimants, and was more concerned with his own philosophical musings than chronicling history.

Quote:Comparisons of Jesus to Pilate are not meaningful. We would expect spotty records of Roman provincial officials. We would not expect that a divine being performing miracles witnessed by thousands would not be so widely recorded that no contemporary records would be left. The evidence is that the Jesus of the bible did not exist and if the character is based on somebody who did then that person was nothing special.

Ah okay so we would expect spotty records of Pilate, and a Jesus who wasn't as miraculous as purported to be by his followers, the sort of Jesus secular, and non-christian historians acknowledge existed?

Also it's not clear to me why you believe it follows that certain miraculous attributes of Jesus, like the resurrection happened, that we would have non-christian writings confirming that these events took place? When it seems to expectation would be that those who believed these things would likely be or become believers anyways.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-06-2016, 08:05 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-06-2016 07:47 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Seoq, see this thread for a lot of discussion about Josephus's writings and Tomasia's completely dishonest style of apologetics.

Yes, in that thread I chased out a bunch of ridiculous claims by atheists, such as GoodwithoutGod, Rocketsurgeon, Bucky, running them out of town. And I'll do the same here.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-06-2016, 08:13 AM (This post was last modified: 22-06-2016 08:29 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-06-2016 08:05 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Yes, in that thread I chased out a bunch of ridiculous claims by atheists, such as GoodwithoutGod, Rocketsurgeon, Bucky, running them out of town. And I'll do the same here.

Oh really. "Ran us out or town" did you ?
Your delusional arrogance really knows no bounds.
No one has "left town" you fucktard. You told us the reason we didn't buy your shit was because we were 'evil' or something similar, Mr. "there had to have been a Jesus, as there were followers".
You have NEVER ONCE taken on the specific arguments of Carrier or Price. You are incompetent to do so.

What are you doing here again, you fraud ? And then you said "Can't we just let bygones be bygones" ? Yet here you are, repeating the same old shit.
You really have no shame.

I don't care what "most scholars" say about anything. First of all, almost all of the ones who even care, are RELIGIOUS people, who have an inherent conflict of interest. They NEED their JOBS.
So first there needs to be a statistically valid poll, of scholars who have no inherent conflict of interest. Josephus is totally UNRELIABLE. He was in the employ of Rome. There is no way of knowing what he meant by "brother". He repeated ALL the (supposedly) "historical" facts of Jewish history, now totally debunked by archaeology.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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22-06-2016, 08:15 AM (This post was last modified: 22-06-2016 08:25 AM by Grasshopper.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-06-2016 08:05 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-06-2016 07:47 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Seoq, see this thread for a lot of discussion about Josephus's writings and Tomasia's completely dishonest style of apologetics.

Yes, in that thread I chased out a bunch of ridiculous claims by atheists, such as GoodwithoutGod, Rocketsurgeon, Bucky, running them out of town. And I'll do the same here.

GoodWithoutGod, Rocket Surgeon, and Bucky Ball all have vastly more credibility here than you do, and generally provide more (and more reputable) sources for their statements than you do. I would say that they chased out your ridiculous claims. Have you been taking lessons from Call of the Wild? Because he's also quite fond of claiming victory after a defeat.
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22-06-2016, 08:43 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-06-2016 08:13 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Oh really. "Ran us out or town" did you ?
Your delusional arrogance really knows no bounds.

Yes, claims like Philo visiting Jerusalem frequently as claimed by you. GoodwithGod, and Rocketsurgeon claims that Philo was in Jerusalem during the time of Jesus death, and life, claims such as the Jesus in the Josephus passage was Jesus son of Damneus, etc...


Which individuals like yourself had to retract quickly, and others though it was safer to leave town, then acknowledge their ignorance when supporting such claims.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-06-2016, 08:46 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-06-2016 08:15 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  GoodWithoutGod, Rocket Surgeon, and Bucky Ball all have vastly more credibility here than you do, and generally provide more (and more reputable) sources for their statements than you do. I would say that they chased out your ridiculous claims.

When shit hit the fan, when it came time to talk about the actual sources, they left town. When I pointed out that their claims were not supported by the sources we have, they just miraculously disappeared from the discussion, to save face by not having to confess that they were wrong, or misled.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-06-2016, 08:49 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-06-2016 08:43 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-06-2016 08:13 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Oh really. "Ran us out or town" did you ?
Your delusional arrogance really knows no bounds.

Yes, claims like Philo visiting Jerusalem frequently as claimed by you. GoodwithGod, and Rocketsurgeon claims that Philo was in Jerusalem during the time of Jesus death, and life, claims such as the Jesus in the Josephus passage was Jesus son of Damneus, etc...


Which individuals like yourself had to retract quickly, and others though it was safer to leave town, then acknowledge their ignorance when supporting such claims.

No one "left town" except you. You have YET to take on ONE of Carrier's or Price's arguments. You've never been in town. You told me the reason I didn't buy your shit, was my mind was "polluted", typical religious self-righteous bullshit). Your assumption that Philo didn't know what was going on in Jerusalem, when he had multiple contacts and family members in the area is unsupported. You addressed NONE of the conflict of interest questions. You can't even identify who it is that constitutes your vast majority. Instead of these deflection attempts, how about take on the REAL issues, and stop trying to change the subject. You have NO EVIDENCE that there was a Jesus of Nazareth that holds up to scrutiny. Josephus is unreliable. deal with the arguments, or STFU.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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22-06-2016, 08:54 AM (This post was last modified: 22-06-2016 08:59 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-06-2016 08:49 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Your assumption that Philo didn't know what was going on in Jerusalem, when he had multiple contacts and family members in the area is unsupported.

You claim that Philo visited Jerusalem frequently. And I called you out for making this up. Because Philo only mentioned visiting Jerusalem once in his life time.

DO you acknowledge that you made this claim up, that you were attempting to pass off a falsity, an entirely unsupported claim, as a fact?

Or do you lack the integrity even know to admit that?

Quote:You addressed NONE of the conflict of interest questions. You can't even identify who it is that constitutes your vast majority.

I went over all this in that thread.

Quote:You have NO EVIDENCE that there was a Jesus of Nazareth that holds up to scrutiny. Josephus is unreliable. deal with the arguments, or STFU.

Josephus James/Jesus passage is considered reliable and authentic, you have yet to make a persuasive argument to suggest it isn't. The only reason dishonest folks like yourself like to suggest it's inauthentic, is not because this makes the most sense, but solely because it's inconvenient for those who like to suggest Jesus didn't exist.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-06-2016, 08:56 AM (This post was last modified: 22-06-2016 01:58 PM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-06-2016 08:43 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-06-2016 08:13 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Oh really. "Ran us out or town" did you ?
Your delusional arrogance really knows no bounds.

Yes, claims like Philo visiting Jerusalem frequently as claimed by you. GoodwithGod, and Rocketsurgeon claims that Philo was in Jerusalem during the time of Jesus death, and life, claims such as the Jesus in the Josephus passage was Jesus son of Damneus, etc...


Which individuals like yourself had to retract quickly, and others though it was safer to leave town, then acknowledge their ignorance when supporting such claims.

Full disclosure: I am and remain a non-Mythicist; I believe there was an actual Jesus, and that he was a radical reformer killed by the Romans. When I argue against points by the "Jesus-as-God-on-Earth" crowd, I will often point to weak elements of their idea of a living miracle worker (or god) walking among us, but I still think Jesus was likely a real person with real followers.

It is dishonest to represent my position otherwise, Tomato.

And for the record, Tomato, it was after giving you the benefit of the doubt despite the fact that others had warned me that you were both hard-headed and disingenuous, that I finally had enough and quit talking to you. You were continually distorting what we were saying, instead of listening to it.

I did and do claim that Philo of Alexandria was "in the area", because of friends/colleagues/famly in the in the city, with much connection to the culture of Jerusalem, and would doubtless have heard of the crazy events surrounding this Jesus (and the zombies/darkness/etc.), if it was something other than a rumor/myth that arose among cultists in the first century of Christian cult-evolution. That's it.

What you have claimed we're saying is much more specific and easily-disproved than that (a straw-man), and you did it repeatedly.

When I realized the depths of your dishonesty and willful blindness, I stopped arguing with you. You then claimed victory because I stopped. That makes you both a prideful braggart and an idiot. Congratulations!

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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22-06-2016, 08:56 AM (This post was last modified: 22-06-2016 09:15 AM by seoq.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(22-06-2016 08:02 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Also it's not clear to me why you believe it follows that certain miraculous attributes of Jesus, like the resurrection happened, that we would have non-christian writings confirming that these events took place? When it seems to expectation would be that those who believed these things would likely be or become believers anyways.

Considering that the gospels supposedly record that many witnessed Jesus first hand and still did not believe should hypothetically lend credence to the idea that it's possible to witness a miracle without believing further (and then, naturally, tell others about it). Given that what Jesus supposedly did was so miraculous you would expect news of it to spread just as fast between those who did not believe as it supposedly did with those who did believe (in my opinion).

Edit: I think your assertion that a lot of people would end up becoming believers, thus lessening the amount of non-Christian accounts, has validity though. But I don't think it's unreasonable to expect non-Christian contemporary accounts if even it was only from those who didn't immediately identify as Christian. Thus if what was written about Jesus is true, there should also be contemporary accounts of him that come from non-Christians as well.
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