Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
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02-07-2016, 02:56 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(02-07-2016 02:46 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  There is virtually nothing you can teach me that I don't already know. However ...

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02-07-2016, 02:57 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(02-07-2016 08:56 AM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(01-07-2016 09:32 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "I have read post 506. I see nothing there to be embarrassed about.

What are you getting at?
"

Jeebus! You are either dim witted or too lazy to understand what is there in black and white. I'll spell it out for you...again...

there is no evidence the authors of the gospels were "followers of Jesus." You, for some unexplained reason, think they were.

The "followers of Jesus" (if he existed) were fundamentalist anti gentile Jews, the Nazarenes, an Essenian sect. They were opposed to the gentile world.

If you disagree with this, say so, and say why.

I can't make it any clearer than this.

And...I don't think you know even a tiny fraction of what I think about Paul. Have you read my debate (if one could call it that) with a character called Q...it's in the section of this forum called "the boxing ring." (http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...-Charlatan ). Please read that...then offer your opinion on my writings about Paul.Big Grin

Yes yes yes, I understand that you have mistakenly completely convinced yourself that early Christians were not following the teachings of Jesus.

I do not accept your premise.

Ok. It appears, however, you are not able to say why.
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02-07-2016, 03:06 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(02-07-2016 09:59 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  This is getting extremely annoying.

(02-07-2016 09:47 AM)GoingUp Wrote:  And you think that all these different texts from various religious sects and cultures regarding this Jesus of Nazareth is better explained as all being based upon a wholly mythical character rather than a historical person who's life was embellished by Christians, but not embellished in other documents?

Roman history about him is false?
Jewish history about him is false?
Christian records of debates with non Christians about him are false?

That position is unreasonable.

I believe that it is likely that a preacher named jesus was executed by Pontius Pilate.
I believe that it is possible that more than one preacher named jesus was executed by Pontius Pilate.
I believe that Tacitus is reliable and that his account regarding christians is reliable.

NOW FOR FUCKS SAKE WHAT IS YOUR FUCKING POINT????

He won't answer. I've already asked 4 times.Huh
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02-07-2016, 03:10 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(02-07-2016 02:54 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(02-07-2016 08:53 AM)GoingUp Wrote:  And regardless of whether or not Paul ever met Jesus or his ghost has absolutely nothing to do with your 0% evidence to support all the interpolations you claim.

Yes it does, because Paul obviously never met Jesus or his ghost, yet there is a very occasional passage where he claims, in a round about way, that he did. That is why myself and others think these passages are probably interpolations...they didn't fit with the rest of what was written.

Perhaps if you could list a couple verses where he claims, in a round about way, that he met Jesus I could examine the context and see if your position is valid?
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02-07-2016, 03:12 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(02-07-2016 02:33 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(02-07-2016 01:19 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  What is exceptionally obvious is your lack of academic education on theology, NT, and historicity of jesus. Don't make me beat you with the knowledge stick child. Did I imply more than one jesus was nailed to a piece of wood like an insignificant thief? no.

What I state, and can back up categorically, is no one who EVER wrote of jesus knew him. So all of the "jesus said, and jesus did" stories are based on hearsay by non-eyewitnesses. Ever played the telephone game child? Your anthropocentric perspective of a transcendental super genie and his alleged halfling spawn "false messiah" whose legend was the basis of later hubris theological pseudepigrapha driven fantasies about incarnation and atonement does not impress me as it is without evidence.. Faith, the belief in something without evidence is what you cling to like a stripper to her favorite pole. Research, trace the story back to its authorship, see the relation to older Sumerian, Crete and Greek myths that all of the major biblical stories are based upon, think, and evolve beyond the Fiction, Fantasy and Forgery that makeup the Christian cult. Endeavor to learn child, and stumble down the epistemological path to truth. Let me know when you think you have learned a few things before you bother to waste my fucking time with your amateur and childlike understanding of the subject at hand.

You implied that there were other people named Jesus who were regarded as a Messiah, presumably during that same time.

I am simply asking you for one other example, aside from Jesus of Nazareth, of any other person named Jesus who was entitled as Christ or Messaih.

In regards to my education, I will tell you this.

You are a student.

I am a teacher.

Wink

You are going to teach GWG...about religion...are you high?

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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02-07-2016, 03:15 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(02-07-2016 10:10 AM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(02-07-2016 09:59 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  This is getting extremely annoying.


I believe that it is likely that a preacher named jesus was executed by Pontius Pilate.
I believe that it is possible that more than one preacher named jesus was executed by Pontius Pilate.
I believe that Tacitus is reliable and that his account regarding christians is reliable.

NOW FOR FUCKS SAKE WHAT IS YOUR FUCKING POINT????

So, let's take you to task and be more precise.

1. Do you believe that the Jesus who was crucified by Pontius Pilate was Jesus of Nazareth, who's life was embellished by the Christians, and therefore subsequently became the centerpiece of the Christian religion?

2. You said that what Tacitus wrote about the Christians was factual, but do you agree that what he wrote about Christ was also factual?

And that is my "fucking point."

Big Grin

I still don't get your point.

Most of us here claim a Jesus may have existed. You say he did. Ad nauseum.

We say "so what?"

We want to know what the big deal is. Why would you care, one way or the other, whether he existed?

You continue to dodge answering this question.
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02-07-2016, 03:18 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(02-07-2016 03:15 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  You continue to dodge answering this question.

From what I have seen on this forum this tends to be standard operating procedure for many of the believers. In fact...it seems to be a rule.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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02-07-2016, 03:32 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(02-07-2016 02:33 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  In regards to my education, I will tell you this.

You are a student.

I am a teacher.

You're new here. So we don't know you, and you don't know us. So it is too soon for you to be claiming you have the high ground. There are Dr's, Lawyers, Biologist, Oceanographer and historians (just to name a few) here. Many that had came to this position not lightly. Going threw lot's of self discovery, or realization.

If you are holding the position of superiority over everyone you meet here. Then the conversation will probably never progress. Ego doesn't demonstrate a positions validity.

That being said. Claims of Messiahs needn't just apply to Jesus. Do you apply the same train of thought when looking at the Prophet Muhammad? We have more evidence that Muhammad existed then we do Jesus. Dose that support the clam that he is the messenger of Allah, and he flew into space on a winged horse?

Saying that the Jesus character did exist or he was based of a charismatic cult leader. Doesn't really mean anything. Even in the context of the story that was cobbled together Jesus doesn't fulfill the requirements it would be to be considered the messiah. His teaching are OK at best. But it is not anything other worldly or profound.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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02-07-2016, 03:42 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(02-07-2016 10:36 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I haven't seen Tomato around in a minute. Can someone check for socks?

I checked. Not a sock.

Also, our new guest isn't as syntactically-challenged as Tomasia.



(02-07-2016 10:34 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  ...
All he is doing in that passage is saying, "They call themselves Christians because of a guy they call Christ. Apparently one of our provincial governors killed the dude." before moving on to the actual meat of the story, which is that they were used as a scapegoat and political distraction for the emperor he's documenting.
...

So I wonder whether had Nero picked on some other crazy cult there'd be a billion followers of that instead. Nothing like some martyrs to swell the ranks.




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02-07-2016, 04:04 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(02-07-2016 12:54 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(02-07-2016 12:44 PM)Chas Wrote:  You are confused. The historicity of Jesus is questionable due to the absence of evidence for it.
There is simply nothing credible- no eyewitness accounts, no contemporary documents, no artifacts.

You seem to assume it is history and (wrongly) demand that it be disproven. You haven't provided enough evidence to support your assertion.

I don't assume anything. It is the consensus of qualified historians who have reviewed all the available evidence, and I agree with them because i also have reviewed all the available evidence.

And don't forget that Paul was a contemporary when wrote his view of Jesus, and tells us he was crucified. It matters not if he ever met the man or not, because it changes absolutely nothing about him being a contemporary.

Jesus of Nazareth was most likely a historical person, and he was crucified by Pontius Pilate. There is more than enough evidence to support that high degree of probability, and absolutely no direct evidence against it.

"And don't forget that Paul was a contemporary when wrote his view of Jesus, and tells us he was crucified."

Woa there!

Paul claimed his Christ was crucified. Was he referring to the Jesus in the gospels? I think not.

Paul very clearly was a legend in his own lunchbox and his own biggest fan. It is very very obvious he did not think much of the family and followers of Jesus. His almost complete silence about them undermines the whole account of Jeebus given in the gospels. He says not much about James, or Peter, who he argues with, and he definitely says nothing about Mary the mother of god.

Imagine you were Paul, and found yourself in Jerusalem in the 50s, and you were a Christian. Surely you would be in awe of the family and original disciples of Jesus! Surely you would be asking them questions. What did Christ look like? What did he do for those 30 years before he started preaching? What happened to ol' Joe? Where is Jesus' house? Where is the empty tomb? What did he tell you on those nights around the campfire? Tell me about all the miracles! Where's ol' Lazarus? Show me the lepers he cured. Did he get pissed at the wedding? Did he ever have a girlfriend? Can I see his sandals? Any bits of the cross left for me to keep as a momento? Where's his mum? I really want to talk to Mary the mother of god! Strike me pink... I seem to be the only one who can speak and write Greek around here, as none of these Jewish people can, so I'd better document all this!

Instead we get a stunning silence about all this. Not a skerrick about any of it from Paul. Just Paul's own bullshit about his god / man Christ.

This is how Paul justified himself...

“The fact is, brothers, and I want you to realize this, the Good News I preached is not a human message that I was given by men, it is something I learned only through a revelation of Jesus Christ. You must have heard of my career as a practicing Jew, how merciless I was in persecuting the Church of God, how much damage I did to it, how I stood out among other Jews of my generation, and how enthusiastic I was for the traditions of my ancestors. Then God, who had specifically chosen me while I was still in my mother’s womb, called me through his grace and chose to reveal his son in me, so that I may preach the Good News about him to the pagans” (Gal. 1:11–24, NJB.)

“I am astonished at the promptness with which you have turned away from the one who called you and have decided to follow a different version of the Good News. Not that there can be more than one Good News; it is merely that some trouble makers among you want to change the Good News of Christ; and let me warn you that if anyone preaches a version of the Good News different from the one that we have already preached to you, whether it be ourselves or an angel from heaven, he is condemned” (Gal. 1:6–9, NJB.)

“Brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, the gospel that you received and in which you are firmly established; because the gospel will save you only if you keep believing exactly what I preached to you - believing anything else will not lead to anything” (1 Cor. 15:1–3, NJB.)

IT IS VERY CLEAR "PAUL'S OWN VIEW OF JESUS" WAS NOT ABOUT THE JESUS YOU THINK YOU KNOW FROM THE GOSPELS.
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