Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
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04-07-2016, 05:11 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(03-07-2016 01:46 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  First of all, you are not a "Christian" by any definition.

Quote:Tomato
Says the guy who claims that a supposed early sect that believed in a non-historical messiah, was "Jewish".

And also claims that Bonhoeffer was an atheist.

Quote:Bucky :
You can't define it. You won't define it.

Quote:Tomato :
Define what? What it means to self identify as a Christian?

"Says the guy who claims that a supposed early sect that believed in a non-historical messiah, was "Jewish"."

Mark :
If you think the real, original followers/supporters of a (possible) Jesus were anything but Jewish, both in a cultural and religious sense, you are living in la la land.

That is like claiming Osama Bin Laden and all his followers were/are not Muslims.

Your ignorance about the the history is huge. Please do some reading. Google "Nazarenes" or "the way."

Fucking computers, I'm off for a beer.

(Wow ... tried to fix that Mark). Hobo

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04-07-2016, 05:41 AM
Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(04-07-2016 04:52 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-07-2016 04:33 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I don't know what demonstration means.

Tacitus is evidence in support of a historical Jesus.

Do you agree with that?

It is very weak evidence as it is hearsay. Drinking Beverage


So you see it as weak evidence.

Josephus writing on James, indicating he's Jesus's brother, is that something else you categorize as evidence, just weak evidence?

Paul's first hand account of meeting his brother and disciples, categorized as evidence as well? But weak evidence in your book?

Would pretty much anything short of archaeological evidence, constitute as weak evidence in your book?

Do you consider circumstantial evidence in general to be weak evidence? Whether in support of historicity or other things?


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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-07-2016, 06:02 AM (This post was last modified: 04-07-2016 06:15 AM by Deltabravo.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(04-07-2016 04:52 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-07-2016 04:33 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I don't know what demonstration means.

Tacitus is evidence in support of a historical Jesus.

Do you agree with that?

It is very weak evidence as it is hearsay. Drinking Beverage
Lol. All history is hearsay. And in law hearsay can be strong and compelling evidence and as a result laws have been passed to allow the use of hearsay evidence such as business records. Hearsay is just a legal term designating statements which cannot be subjected to cross examination so it simply has no relevance in considerng historical facts and even if something is found to be hearsay it can still be true. Also, the use of the name Pontius Pilate when there is no Jesus crucified during his rule may mean that th New Testament account is partially fictionalized and set in that time period for a reason.
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04-07-2016, 06:02 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
Why didn't Jesus convert or even interest someone who could read and write, or even hire someone who could read and write? NO first hand accounts of his sayings. This from the guy who supposedly carried the most important message ever given to Man.
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04-07-2016, 06:13 AM
Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(03-07-2016 04:56 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Liar. Lying for Jebus. I never said that. I said we don't know what they thought.

No we have a variety of different writings of the time from a variety of different forms of Judaism, none of which support the belief in a non-historical Jewish messiah. Not in these writings themselves, or in the responses to variety of writings at the time, or anywhere else.

What is intersecting is how you claim we don't know what various early jewish groups believed at the time, yet claim that Jesus did not fulfill Jewish expectations of the time, but shouldn't your answer be you don't what their expectations were? You don't know whether there were Jewish groups who expected a messiah that was to be crucified, who saw they Isaiah 53 passage as messianic prophecies, etc..?



Quote:
Quote:And also claims that Bonhoeffer was an atheist. 3

He was. He said so. I proved it.


No, I proved you wrong, I even quoted several of his final letters to Eberhard, to prove this, where he confesses his Christianity through and through.

Quote:Define what? What it means to self identify as a Christian?


Those who hold to Jesus as the messiah, and see him as, the way, the truth, and the life. That would be my general definition.






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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-07-2016, 07:05 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(04-07-2016 05:41 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Paul's first hand account of meeting his brother and disciples, categorized as evidence as well? But weak evidence in your book?

What Paul are you talking about ?
The one who (supposedly) wrote Romans, or the one(s) who slapped the name "Paul" on the letters that are not considered authentic ?

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04-07-2016, 07:07 AM
Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(04-07-2016 07:05 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(04-07-2016 05:41 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Paul's first hand account of meeting his brother and disciples, categorized as evidence as well? But weak evidence in your book?

What Paul are you talking about ?
The one who (supposedly) wrote Romans, or the one(s) who slapped the name "Paul" on the letters that are not considered authentic ?


The Paul who wrote of meeting his brother's and disciples, in the letters considered authentic.


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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-07-2016, 07:09 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(04-07-2016 06:02 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Lol. All history is hearsay.

^^^^^ This. This is why db posts such garbage.
History has METHODS, and various levels for the reliability of evidence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_method

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04-07-2016, 07:13 AM
Contemporary Accounts of Jesus

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-07-2016, 07:15 AM
Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(04-07-2016 07:09 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(04-07-2016 06:02 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Lol. All history is hearsay.

^^^^^ This. This is why db posts such garbage.
History has METHODS, and various levels for the reliability of evidence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_method


Yet most ancient world historical writings are not first hand accounts, but second hand sources. Hearsay as you put it.

So are you suggesting here that we have methods and various methods to evaluate this hearsay accounts for reliability?


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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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