Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
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04-07-2016, 07:23 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(04-07-2016 05:41 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-07-2016 04:52 AM)Chas Wrote:  It is very weak evidence as it is hearsay. Drinking Beverage


So you see it as weak evidence.

Josephus writing on James, indicating he's Jesus's brother, is that something else you categorize as evidence, just weak evidence?

Paul's first hand account of meeting his brother and disciples, categorized as evidence as well? But weak evidence in your book?

Would pretty much anything short of archaeological evidence, constitute as weak evidence in your book?

Do you consider circumstantial evidence in general to be weak evidence? Whether in support of historicity or other things?

Circumstantial evidence and hearsay are spectacularly weak evidence on their own. They must be bolstered by other, stronger, evidence.

You still fail to grasp that the Bible stories as a whole are the claim. They must be supported by stronger evidence from non-Biblical sources. So far, all of that evidence is circumstantial or hearsay, so it does little to support the alleged facts of the Bible.

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04-07-2016, 07:30 AM (This post was last modified: 04-07-2016 07:34 AM by Deltabravo.)
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
It's a free world. Anyone can take any view on any part of Christianity.

I follow the moral precept that I should do unto others as I would have others do unto me. I consider this to be a dictate of "reason" and that this is what is meant by the logos. I have considered the evidence such as it is and have concluded that Jesus was a real person of a royal line of Armenians who had been expelled from Egypt and that his father was considered to be a human "god" due to his royal lineage. I consider the rest of the story to be about him using a Hellenistic interpretation of the Bible to convert his people to a peaceful religion which was later written up by Josephus bar Mathias, alias Matthew. The precise setting of the story and details of a crucifixion become largely irrelevant since reason also dictates that Jesus was not resurrected but that he or his brother Thomas was crucified but survived and then ran off.

Whether my interpretation is true or not is immaterial if the point of Christianity was to make people abandon a barbarous ritual based religion and behave reasonably.

You have to make a choice if you take a reasoned view of the New Testament. Either you read it from a rational perspective as reflecting a Hellenistic reason based religious pedagogical text and you interpret the mystical, magical elements of the story as just pedagogical tools, or you ignore the central theme of it, that the "logos" has become "the God", and you fanny about, unable to figure out which way is up and wtf it all means.
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04-07-2016, 07:42 AM
Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(04-07-2016 07:23 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-07-2016 05:41 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  So you see it as weak evidence.

Josephus writing on James, indicating he's Jesus's brother, is that something else you categorize as evidence, just weak evidence?

Paul's first hand account of meeting his brother and disciples, categorized as evidence as well? But weak evidence in your book?

Would pretty much anything short of archaeological evidence, constitute as weak evidence in your book?

Do you consider circumstantial evidence in general to be weak evidence? Whether in support of historicity or other things?

Circumstantial evidence and hearsay are spectacularly weak evidence on their own. They must be bolstered by other, stronger, evidence.

You still fail to grasp that the Bible stories as a whole are the claim. They must be supported by stronger evidence from non-Biblical sources. So far, all of that evidence is circumstantial or hearsay, so it does little to support the alleged facts of the Bible.

Never mind whether we agree on Tacitus, Josephus, and first hand accounts are weak evidence. And your no answer as to whether anything short of archaeological evidence is weak evidence.

I would think if one has tons of "weak" evidence, or circumstantial evidence, that this could be as compelling as any single piece of strong evidence. They might not be compelling on their own, but in connection can be just as compelling as any single piece of strong evidence.

Do you disagree?



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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-07-2016, 07:54 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(04-07-2016 07:30 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  It's a free world. Anyone can take any view on any part of Christianity.

And when someone expresses their views, anyone can express their own judgement on the validity of those views.

If a person believes something that is false or incorrect, that can have negative effects on themselves as well as everyone else.

(04-07-2016 07:30 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  I follow the moral precept that I should do unto others as I would have others do unto me.

This is a reasonable foundation to start a moral code.

(04-07-2016 07:30 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  I have considered the evidence such as it is and have concluded that ...

Blink I'll keep my trust in the acknowledged historians.

(04-07-2016 07:30 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Whether my interpretation is true or not is immaterial if the point of Christianity was to make people abandon a barbarous ritual based religion and behave reasonably.

No. If a belief is not true it should be discarded in favor of a more accurate belief.

(04-07-2016 07:30 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  You have to make a choice if you take a reasoned view of the New Testament.

The only reasoned choice is that the NT is a collection of fables. It is no more accurate than those of the Ancient Greeks or Ancient Egyptians or any other discredited religion.

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04-07-2016, 08:00 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(04-07-2016 07:42 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I would think if one has tons of "weak" evidence, or circumstantial evidence, that this could be as compelling as any single piece of strong evidence. They might not be compelling on their own, but in connection can be just as compelling as any single piece of strong evidence.

The evidence needed is directly related to the question being answered.

The more extravagant or unbelievable a claim, the more evidence needed to support it.

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04-07-2016, 08:15 AM
Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(04-07-2016 08:00 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(04-07-2016 07:42 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I would think if one has tons of "weak" evidence, or circumstantial evidence, that this could be as compelling as any single piece of strong evidence. They might not be compelling on their own, but in connection can be just as compelling as any single piece of strong evidence.

The evidence needed is directly related to the question being answered.

The more extravagant or unbelievable a claim, the more evidence needed to support it.


A Jewish apocalyptical preacher, perhaps a bit of a lunatic, who was messiah claimant, than went around preaching about the kingdom of God, that developed a pesky following, had a brother named James, and disciples, and got strung up by the Romans at the hands of Pilate. And whom his devoted followers attributed a variety of fanciful elements to him proceeding his death, believing him to have overcome his humiliating defeat, through the superstitious belief in his resurrection, is hardly an extravagant claim.

The combined weight of the evidence strongly supports his existence, and renders the idea of his non-existence as an absurdity.




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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-07-2016, 08:20 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(04-07-2016 08:15 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-07-2016 08:00 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  The evidence needed is directly related to the question being answered.

The more extravagant or unbelievable a claim, the more evidence needed to support it.


A Jewish apocalyptical preacher, perhaps a bit of a lunatic, who was messiah claimant, than went around preaching about the kingdom of God, that developed a pesky following, had a brother named James, and disciples, and got strung up by the Romans at the hands of Pilate. And whom his devoted followers attributed a variety of fanciful elements to him proceeding his death, believing him to have overcome his humiliating defeat, through the superstitious belief in his resurrection, is hardly an extravagant claim.

The combined weight of the evidence strongly supports his existence, and renders the idea of his non-existence as an absurdity.




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Jesus was a lunatic? And why would you give credence to any of his teachings or any of his followers teachings?

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Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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04-07-2016, 08:26 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(04-07-2016 07:42 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-07-2016 07:23 AM)Chas Wrote:  Circumstantial evidence and hearsay are spectacularly weak evidence on their own. They must be bolstered by other, stronger, evidence.

You still fail to grasp that the Bible stories as a whole are the claim. They must be supported by stronger evidence from non-Biblical sources. So far, all of that evidence is circumstantial or hearsay, so it does little to support the alleged facts of the Bible.

Never mind whether we agree on Tacitus, Josephus, and first hand accounts are weak evidence. And your no answer as to whether anything short of archaeological evidence is weak evidence.

I would think if one has tons of "weak" evidence, or circumstantial evidence, that this could be as compelling as any single piece of strong evidence. They might not be compelling on their own, but in connection can be just as compelling as any single piece of strong evidence.

Do you disagree?

In principle, no. However, on the Jesus question neither side has sufficient evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-07-2016, 08:28 AM
Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(04-07-2016 08:20 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Jesus was a lunatic? And why would you give credence to any of his teachings or any of his followers teachings?
If he wasn't who he said he was, than yes he's be nothing short of lunatic, like the countless others comedic bipolar individuals sitting in loony bins now believing they've been specially chosen by God, to rescue humanity.

I give him credence because his lunacy seems to ring truer for me than yours.


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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-07-2016, 08:30 AM
Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(04-07-2016 08:26 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-07-2016 07:42 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Never mind whether we agree on Tacitus, Josephus, and first hand accounts are weak evidence. And your no answer as to whether anything short of archaeological evidence is weak evidence.

I would think if one has tons of "weak" evidence, or circumstantial evidence, that this could be as compelling as any single piece of strong evidence. They might not be compelling on their own, but in connection can be just as compelling as any single piece of strong evidence.

Do you disagree?

In principle, no. However, on the Jesus question neither side has sufficient evidence.

Does each side have an equivalent amount of weak evidence? Does one side have considerably more than the other or not?

When it comes to historicity you already suggests there's weak evidence in support of it, and in principle you agree that a ton of weak evidence can be just as good as any single piece of strong evidence. Is it just the amount of weak evidence that you take issue with, that there isn't a plethora of weak of evidence here?


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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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