Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
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04-07-2016, 10:17 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(04-07-2016 10:13 AM)GoingUp Wrote:  Your position is rejected, not only by me, but virtually unanimously by the learned in the scholarly community.

You speak for all those people? Really?

You are a legend in your own mind, aren't you?

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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04-07-2016, 10:26 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(04-07-2016 08:15 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-07-2016 08:00 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  The evidence needed is directly related to the question being answered.

The more extravagant or unbelievable a claim, the more evidence needed to support it.


A Jewish apocalyptical preacher, perhaps a bit of a lunatic, who was messiah claimant, than went around preaching about the kingdom of God, that developed a pesky following, had a brother named James, and disciples, and got strung up by the Romans at the hands of Pilate. And whom his devoted followers attributed a variety of fanciful elements to him proceeding his death, believing him to have overcome his humiliating defeat, through the superstitious belief in his resurrection, is hardly an extravagant claim.

The combined weight of the evidence strongly supports his existence, and renders the idea of his non-existence as an absurdity.

The combined weight of the evidence strongly supports his existence.
(fixed that for you.)

(04-07-2016 08:15 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  And whom his devoted followers attributed a variety of fanciful elements to him proceeding his death, believing him to have overcome his humiliating defeat, though the superstitious belief in his resurrection, is hardly an extravagant claim.

(I bolded that because I'm thinking through should have been though. Am I correct?)

I consider rising from the dead after three days an extravagant claim. Someone that is resuscitated after three minutes makes the news, let alone three days.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

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04-07-2016, 10:32 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(04-07-2016 10:17 AM)Anjele Wrote:  
(04-07-2016 10:13 AM)GoingUp Wrote:  Your position is rejected, not only by me, but virtually unanimously by the learned in the scholarly community.

You speak for all those people? Really?

You are a legend in your own mind, aren't you?

I bet he thinks he's the real Jeebus...

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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04-07-2016, 10:52 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
It's actually not at all as 'cut and dry' as GoingDown would have it.

There are no original copies of Tacitus' Annals. The oldest copies there are, are/were in Christian hands. We know they interpolated things. The name in the manuscript of the group that Nero persecuted was "Chrestiani". Chrestus was the name of a Jewish insurrectionist whom Seutonius mentions as the leader of a group of Jews expelled from Rome 20 years prior. There could not possibly have been large numbers of "Christians" yet in Rome in 60 AD. The cult was just starting. Why would Tacitus get one name spelled one way, and "Christus" spelled another, if he was SO cognizant of details ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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04-07-2016, 10:56 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(04-07-2016 07:13 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  But following your reasoning we don't know if Philo existed, no evidence that he wrote anything, just a bunch of writings with his name on it. And a brief mention by Josephus, who never met him. We also don't know if Josephus existed either, we just have writing by someone who referred to himself as Josephus. lol.

Yes Tomato, dear, That's all nice.
They weren't trying to start their own new religion, were they.

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04-07-2016, 10:58 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(04-07-2016 10:17 AM)Anjele Wrote:  
(04-07-2016 10:13 AM)GoingUp Wrote:  Your position is rejected, not only by me, but virtually unanimously by the learned in the scholarly community.

You speak for all those people? Really?

They speak for themselves, as has been previously demonstrated earlier in this thread.
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04-07-2016, 11:04 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(04-07-2016 10:58 AM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(04-07-2016 10:17 AM)Anjele Wrote:  You speak for all those people? Really?

They speak for themselves, as has been previously demonstrated earlier in this thread.

You can leave out either 'previously' or 'earlier'.

You still don't speak for others. You just think when you say that it lends credence to your walls of text.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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04-07-2016, 11:12 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(04-07-2016 10:26 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  I consider rising from the dead after three days an extravagant claim. Someone that is resuscitated after three minutes makes the news, let alone three days.

Yea, I know the journalist at the time should have been swarming, upon hearing the news that the followers of Jesus claim to have seen him for a short bit after he died.

Or more than likely they would do what Tacitus did, treat it as a mischievous superstition. If they believed it, they likely would become Christians.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-07-2016, 11:13 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(04-07-2016 10:56 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(04-07-2016 07:13 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  But following your reasoning we don't know if Philo existed, no evidence that he wrote anything, just a bunch of writings with his name on it. And a brief mention by Josephus, who never met him. We also don't know if Josephus existed either, we just have writing by someone who referred to himself as Josephus. lol.

Yes Tomato, dear, That's all nice.
They weren't trying to start their own new religion, were they.

They could have been, in their missing secret writings. You don't know whether they were or not.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-07-2016, 11:18 AM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(04-07-2016 09:08 AM)Chas Wrote:  Can't? No, can't be bothered to.
When each side's evidence is considered, it comes up short.
There is no need to compare them; it is pointless.

No there is, if you wanna suggest the positions are equivalent

Now, you think the writing of Tacitus, of Josephus regarding James, Paul's first hand account of meeting his brother and disciple are weak evidence in support of a historical Jesus. Can you point to equivalent evidence for a non-existing Jesus, you see as just as strong (just as weak)?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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