Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
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04-07-2016, 02:43 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(04-07-2016 01:49 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-07-2016 01:11 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  We know that there is no record among Jewish documents about the trial and execution of Jesus, in which the Sanhedrin council was somehow illegally convened on the eve of a Sabbath for the first time in history.

They illegally convened to execute James as well, according to Josephus, so it wasn't the first time they illegally convened.

There is no record they convened on Passover weekend EVER. Not once.
Someone would have talked about that.

Nice try Tomato. You forgot the IMPORTANT part.

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04-07-2016, 02:45 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(04-07-2016 01:01 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  
(04-07-2016 10:52 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  It's actually not at all as 'cut and dry' as GoingDown would have it.

There are no original copies of Tacitus' Annals. The oldest copies there are, are/were in Christian hands. We know they interpolated things. The name in the manuscript of the group that Nero persecuted was "Chrestiani". Chrestus was the name of a Jewish insurrectionist whom Seutonius mentions as the leader of a group of Jews expelled from Rome 20 years prior. There could not possibly have been large numbers of "Christians" yet in Rome in 60 AD. The cult was just starting. Why would Tacitus get one name spelled one way, and "Christus" spelled another, if he was SO cognizant of details ?

This tired old mythicis argument.

Laugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out load

Yep, a christian is going to edit the Tacitus text and tell us how their beliefs are "evil" and "superstitious" and how they were "criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment."

I'm sure they would get right on that.

Laugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out load

You forgot about the "Chrestus" part. Interesting you got nothing about that.

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04-07-2016, 03:42 PM (This post was last modified: 04-07-2016 04:16 PM by Tomasia.)
Contemporary Accounts of Jesus

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-07-2016, 04:19 PM
Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(04-07-2016 01:01 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  This tired old mythicis argument.

Laugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out load

Yep, a christian is going to edit the Tacitus text and tell us how their beliefs are "evil" and "superstitious" and how they were "criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment."

I'm sure they would get right on that.

Laugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out load

They were aiming for subtlety, after going overboard with the Josephus passage, they wanted to tone it down a bit the second time around.







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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-07-2016, 04:25 PM
Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(04-07-2016 02:45 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(04-07-2016 01:01 PM)GoingUp Wrote:  This tired old mythicis argument.

Laugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out load

Yep, a christian is going to edit the Tacitus text and tell us how their beliefs are "evil" and "superstitious" and how they were "criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment."

I'm sure they would get right on that.

Laugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out load

You forgot about the "Chrestus" part. Interesting you got nothing about that.


Ah so it wasn't an interpolation, but another messiah claimant that was coincidently killed under Pilate, that coincidently had a following that referred to itself as Christians. Who by chance was able to gain a large enough following with that time frame, though the followers of J. C. weren't able too.

This must be another example of Rocketsurgeon's clear and thoughtful thinking.


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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-07-2016, 04:37 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(04-07-2016 01:40 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  Why should I have to clarify this? I think it's pretty obvious, these writings are not contemporary, I can say as a skeptic that it proves nothing, he probably didn't exist, if a Christian says "Hey, that's proof that Jesus was real!" that would be the weaker position.

You suggested that such things were evidence of Jesus not existing. It doesn’t follow from a source not being contemporary, that this is evidence of the person written about not existing. If iyou consider that x is weak evidence in support of A, it doesn’t follow that X is also evidence for B.

And secondly Josephus is a contemporary for James, whose death he writes of, and indicates was the brother of Jesus. So his writing on James is contemporary.

Quote:Ok so all you need is someone who spoke to Rama's brother who never actually knew him or was a contemporary of him but wrote of his brother's death so we know they knew each other? So for the record this is now a second hand account, not a first hand account unless the brother wrote this shit down himself.

No if someone is writing of meeting a person’s brother, and disciples, that’s a first hand account of meeting them. I think it goes without saying that non-historical people don’t have biological brothers. Not to mention the James/Jesus is cited not only in the NT, but in Josephus as well, who is contemporary of James.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-07-2016, 04:50 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(04-07-2016 03:42 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  You don't know whether there were records of other trials conveyed on Passover weekend or not, there may have been hundreds that took place on that day, in documents that are now lost.

So it's not the legality of the trial that's an issue, but the supposed day it was conducted on?

No dumbass. Jews wrote and talked about important events. There is no record of the Sanhedrin EVER being convened on Passover weekend. Ever. They made up the trial. No Jewish peasants were ever brought before Roman aristocrats. There was a standing order to execute trouble-makers during the Pax Romana. No Jew ever wrote about the temple curtain being torn either. They made it all up..... decades later.

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04-07-2016, 04:52 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(04-07-2016 04:37 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-07-2016 01:40 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  Why should I have to clarify this? I think it's pretty obvious, these writings are not contemporary, I can say as a skeptic that it proves nothing, he probably didn't exist, if a Christian says "Hey, that's proof that Jesus was real!" that would be the weaker position.

You suggested that such things were evidence of Jesus not existing. It doesn’t follow from a source not being contemporary, that this is evidence of the person written about not existing. If iyou consider that x is weak evidence in support of A, it doesn’t follow that X is also evidence for B.

And secondly Josephus is a contemporary for James, whose death he writes of, and indicates was the brother of Jesus. So his writing on James is contemporary.

Quote:Ok so all you need is someone who spoke to Rama's brother who never actually knew him or was a contemporary of him but wrote of his brother's death so we know they knew each other? So for the record this is now a second hand account, not a first hand account unless the brother wrote this shit down himself.

No if someone is writing of meeting a person’s brother, and disciples, that’s a first hand account of meeting them. I think it goes without saying that non-historical people don’t have biological brothers. Not to mention the James/Jesus is cited not only in the NT, but in Josephus as well, who is contemporary of James.

This (supposed brother) James wrote a letter in the NT. If your brother actually rose from the dead, would you forget to mention it in a letter promoting your cult ?

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04-07-2016, 04:59 PM
RE: Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(04-07-2016 04:37 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  And secondly Josephus is a contemporary for James, whose death he writes of, and indicates was the brother of Jesus. So his writing on James is contemporary.

So then Tomato, now you're trying to make a case for contemporary accounts of James.
I see. Facepalm

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04-07-2016, 05:12 PM
Contemporary Accounts of Jesus
(04-07-2016 04:50 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  [

No dumbass. Jews wrote and talked about important events. There is no record of the Sanhedrin EVER being convened on Passover weekend.
Ever. They made up the trial. No Jewish peasants were ever brought before Roman aristocrats. There was a standing order to execute trouble-makers during the Pax Romana. No Jew ever wrote about the temple curtain being torn either. They made it all up..... decades later.

They might have in those sources that we no longer have, like the ones with the Jews who believed in a non-historical messiah.

You don't know that they never brought a Jewish peasant before Roman aristocrats, or that no Jew ever wrote about the curtain being torn. They may have wrote about all these things, done all these things, in written sources we no longer have.





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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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