Contradictions and Problems with Essential Christian Doctrine?
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05-09-2013, 01:04 PM
RE: Contradictions and Problems with Essential Christian Doctrine?
Quote:Again, they can somehow overlook this stuff and say that Jesus was a fulfilled prophecy and minor details don't effect the whole of the story.

They will overlook ANYTHING that contradicts their view if you let them. Remember that they are saying "you should believe" right? So its important to stop them at the point where they cross your comfort zone for belief - not theirs.

To me if you are telling me a story, and its about my life and death and eternal torture, and the whole idea is that the bible is "inspired" by god, then why would any detail be inaccurate? They are framing the debate - saying its big things that matter and you are going along with that point. You have to frame the debate according to your standards and not theirs.

For example, if you buy in to the world is good or evil dichotomy, and not a bad, good, better, best world (which is my experience) - then that false dichotomy leads you down an entire path of reasoning. In my experience you have to challenge those foundational assumptions that you don't agree with before it goes too far down one path of thinking, and then its too late to go back to the assumption you should have challenged.

Like, for starters, why should I believe the bible is accurate about anything that it purports?

Playing devil's advocate here, if you aren't sure why you don't believe in the bible, why not read and study it yourself to become sure? A lot of people come here for advice on how to win their arguments, but if you can't win it yourself, maybe you need to study more so you can. I think reading the bible all the way through and taking notes on it step by step is the best way, then research the questions you wrote down here or on the internet. This, however, is definitely the long path - and some guys here may disagree with this approach. If this is going to happen a lot, either because you have questions or want answers, doing it while you are young can save you a lot of hardship later on.

After all, you want to be sure right? I sure did, and I am. Not about everything, but definitely about the Judeo-Christian god. My 2 cents, I'm sure its worth only slightly more than you paid for it. Good luck!

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05-09-2013, 01:10 PM
RE: Contradictions and Problems with Essential Christian Doctrine?
I'll do you one better, if Jesus truly was a the Jewish messiah, why do we still have Jews? Because Jesus was not the Jewish messiah.
















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05-09-2013, 01:18 PM (This post was last modified: 05-09-2013 10:43 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Contradictions and Problems with Essential Christian Doctrine?
(05-09-2013 12:54 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(05-09-2013 12:49 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Pretty easy to fulfill prophecy when writing fan fiction.

Was that a prophecy? Yes? Ok, let's have Jesus from Nazareth and Bethlehem.

Next? Let's have him over here stealing donkeys.

Etc. etc.

What about Jesus's own promise? Return with a lifetime?
Did we miss him because he came as a thief in the night all tippy-toe like?

Ohmy

Step one...come up with something you want seen as a prophecy.

Step two...write the prequel to step one.

Before you start step one, don't forget to lay the groundwork :

a. have Hollywood redefine the ancient role of a prophet (of "advisor") to a "fortune-teller/soothsayer",
b. convince people, that if you predict something in general, which would have likely happened anyway, or that if an event happens, which could loosely be seen as resembling the event predicted, it means the gods are re-arranging your brain chemistry and making you write things you otherwise would not have written.

Which reminds me, why is it there is NO prediction, (NOT ONE EVER), which predicts something, which was completely outside the "scope" of the predicting culture, (galaxies, expanding universe, nature of matter/energy etc etc etc). If the gods were doing the "inspiration" thingy, why were they so limited ?

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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05-09-2013, 03:59 PM
RE: Contradictions and Problems with Essential Christian Doctrine?
The Born Again Skeptic's Guide to the Bible dedicates an entire chapter to discrepancies and contradictions.

One which I like from her book concerns heaven. A paraphrase:

If your convinced that heaven is your destination you had best be prepared for a temporary stay. In spite of all the promises of eternal life, for Jesus says: "Heaven and Earth shall pass away." Matt. 24:35 and Luke 21:33
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06-09-2013, 03:45 AM
RE: Contradictions and Problems with Essential Christian Doctrine?
Essential? No (unless you buy into biblical infallibility). Funny? Hell yeah!

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06-09-2013, 04:17 AM
 
RE: Contradictions and Problems with Essential Christian Doctrine?
(05-09-2013 03:59 PM)Lono Wrote:  If your convinced that heaven is your destination you had best be prepared for a temporary stay. In spite of all the promises of eternal life, for Jesus says: "Heaven and Earth shall pass away." Matt. 24:35 and Luke 21:33

I would be careful with this. By "Heaven" in this context he means simply the "sky". He intended to make a new heaven and a new earth (Revelation 21:1, 2 Peter 3:13).
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06-09-2013, 05:37 AM
RE: Contradictions and Problems with Essential Christian Doctrine?
(06-09-2013 03:45 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Essential? No (unless you buy into biblical infallibility). Funny? Hell yeah!

[Image: Screen-Shot-2013-02-11-at-3.38.59-PM-280x300.png]

Of the folks that I talk to, the majority of them believe in some version of infallibility/inerrancy.

I am deducing from my research and comments here that there isn't any "ammo" against their essential doctrines, aside from the fact that it is ludicrous to have the unfounded beliefs that they have in the first place.
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06-09-2013, 05:47 AM
RE: Contradictions and Problems with Essential Christian Doctrine?
(06-09-2013 05:37 AM)zachzachzachzach Wrote:  
(06-09-2013 03:45 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Essential? No (unless you buy into biblical infallibility). Funny? Hell yeah!

[Image: Screen-Shot-2013-02-11-at-3.38.59-PM-280x300.png]

Of the folks that I talk to, the majority of them believe in some version of infallibility/inerrancy.

I am deducing from my research and comments here that there isn't any "ammo" against their essential doctrines, aside from the fact that it is ludicrous to have the unfounded beliefs that they have in the first place.


I would think that Jesus not meeting the expectations of being the Jewish messiah is kinda a big hole in their doctrines. If they are literalists, then the entire book of Genesis is them shooting themselves in the foot. The world is not flat, supported on four pillars, and encompassed by a solid firmament, nor is outer space filled with water; also the Great Flood never happened.

The greater question is whether or not any of them will be honest enough to actually examine evidence that counter's their assumed conclusions about their faith. Most won't, and instead will come up with any and all rationalizations to dismiss contradictory evidence.

For examples, see 'PleaseJesus', 'Mark Dreher', and 'thetruth' here on the forums.

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06-09-2013, 07:12 AM
RE: Contradictions and Problems with Essential Christian Doctrine?
(06-09-2013 05:47 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  For examples, see 'PleaseJesus', 'Mark Dreher', and 'thetruth' here on the forums.

I had quite a long, hard laugh yesterday looking at Mark Dreher's site. It literally made my day I laughed so hard.
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06-09-2013, 07:26 AM
RE: Contradictions and Problems with Essential Christian Doctrine?
There's one big one which undermines the whole idea. Namely, what is the purpose of Jesus anyway?

The whole purpose of a messiah is so God can forgive humans for Adam's "original sin". But, science has shown pretty much the entirety of Genesis to be pure mythology, no Adam and Eve, no forbidden fruit etc... therefore no need for a messiah to exist at all.

As Christopher Hitchens pointed out, if you are a modern non-fundamental Christian, you have to accept that in the 100,000 years that modern humans have existed, God did nothing for 98,000 years while people lived short, brutal, scary lives.

And when God finally decides to intervene, he doesn't go to China, where people were already scientifically and mathematically literate, but goes to a desert wasteland populated by a violent, backward, illiterate, uneducated society and names them his "chosen people".

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