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26-04-2011, 02:21 PM
RE: Control.
(26-04-2011 02:08 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  but I cannot imagine that such a complicated conspiracy involving so many people would remain such a well kept secret for so long.

This is exactly the reason I have never believed in conspiracies. My own experience with human beings is that when you have a secret and you don't tell anyone, it's a secret. When you have a secret and you tell even one person, it's a matter of time before it's fairly common knowledge. People who know something are usually just bursting to tell someone. This is just human nature. Someone is going to talk. And, when it's a high profile thing where someone can get a book deal or something, several people are going to talk.

In 1996 TWA flight 800 blew up in the air over the Long Island sound. There were all kinds of crazy theories about how the military accidentally shot it down and covered it up. Ignoring for a minute the stupidity of a theory where the US Navy was conducting live missile drills in the most heavily trafficked air corridor on the planet, I'm supposed to believe that multiple ships full of sailors knew that the Navy just blew up a civilian airliner and killed hundreds of people and not one of them came home and told people this awful story? Not one sailor out of a few thousand had a conscience? I just find that impossible to believe.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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26-04-2011, 02:31 PM
RE: Control.
(26-04-2011 02:21 PM)BnW Wrote:  
(26-04-2011 02:08 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  but I cannot imagine that such a complicated conspiracy involving so many people would remain such a well kept secret for so long.

This is exactly the reason I have never believed in conspiracies. My own experience with human beings is that when you have a secret and you don't tell anyone, it's a secret. When you have a secret and you tell even one person, it's a matter of time before it's fairly common knowledge. People who know something are usually just bursting to tell someone. This is just human nature. Someone is going to talk. And, when it's a high profile thing where someone can get a book deal or something, several people are going to talk.

In 1996 TWA flight 800 blew up in the air over the Long Island sound. There were all kinds of crazy theories about how the military accidentally shot it down and covered it up. Ignoring for a minute the stupidity of a theory where the US Navy was conducting live missile drills in the most heavily trafficked air corridor on the planet, I'm supposed to believe that multiple ships full of sailors knew that the Navy just blew up a civilian airliner and killed hundreds of people and not one of them came home and told people this awful story? Not one sailor out of a few thousand had a conscience? I just find that impossible to believe.

Exactly. Personal emotions and personal involvement in a story can complicate/cripple critical thinking. It is very difficult for me to remove my emotions while I am...well emotional but I find that in such a situation I have to remove myself from the situation and allow my emotions to return calm. I think this applies not just to knowledge but to emotions like anger. When my wife and I argue I am always right!!! Until about ten minutes later when I calm and realize that she may also be right because the emotions have dissipated and I can think more rationally.

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26-04-2011, 06:40 PM
 
RE: Control.
(26-04-2011 01:24 PM)BnW Wrote:  riggbeck - first, my response was somewhat sarcastic. And, as for history, I'm very well familiar with history in general and WWII in particular. For example, I happen to know that, President Roosevelt arguably violated several US laws of the era when he supplied the French and English with planes, ships and munitions with which to fight Hitler and without those armaments the British may not have been able to hang on; I know that contrary to popular belief that the attack on Pearl Harbor was the US' first military engagement with Japan in WWII we actually had been supplying the Chinese with arms, planes and even pilots and helping them out in southern China and as far as Burma to help them defend themselves against the Japanese while cutting off Japans supply of oil (which was the primary reason the Japanese finally attacked the US); and I know that had Hitler not broken his treaty with Stalin and attacked Russia he probably would have finished off the allies before the US could get a footing in Europe and if he had and attacked Russia AFTER he secured victory in the west he probably would have beaten Russia but splitting his forces pretty much cost him both fronts. So, yes, I'm well, well aware of the roles various countries played in the winning of World War II but I also know that without US reinforcements and industrial power (which was the single biggest factor), that war may very well have gone the other way.

I should probably explain why reacted as I did. I post regularly on the Guardian's Comment Is Free forum. Because it's not behind a pay wall, we get a lot of trolls, particularly right-wing, uber-patriotic American astroturfers. They sometimes make exactly that assertion in a sneering sort of way, and it pisses me off no end. So when I see it I refute it. In your case, I missed the sarcasm and I apologize for the misunderstanding.

The Lend-Lease stuff, while America was still neutral, was a lifeline. I hadn't realized that Roosevelt bent a few laws to make it happen. I think that by the end of 1941, Britain had already fought off the possibility of an invasion. It was a stalemate, and Russia was Germany's only other target.
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26-04-2011, 07:05 PM
RE: Control.
First, you don't owe me any explanations or apologies. And, it wasn't a complete misunderstanding on your part. My response was somewhat of a dickish American response (although the part where we pretty much saved everyone thanks to our industrial might is basically true).

On the history (I love this stuff, btw, and can go on and on about this):

Roosevelt didn't "bend" a few laws to make it happen. He committed an outright violation of US laws and armed the British in secret. He privately took the position that Congress had no right to limit his ability to arm an ally as he was the commander-and-chief but I don't think he really believed that position would hold up if it was challenged. And, he took great pains to make sure it was not by conducting all this activity in secret and without the knowledge of Congress. Had it been discovered, or discovered before the Nazi's took Paris, world history could have been vastly different. After the fall of Paris is about the time general US opinion started to change from "none of our business" to "oh, shit".

As for your comment about the stalemate, I don't think that's exactly right. It is true that England had fought off the possibility of an invasion, at least in the short term, but she was seriously on the ropes. The only reason England held on as long as it did was crossing the channel with an invasion force is a near impossibility. But, there is no denying that England was in serious trouble. Luckily, Hitler knew it, was over confident on his ability to either finish them off or force the Brits into a negotiated surrender where they never left the home island again (which he probably would have gotten) and turned his attention to Russia. That was his first mistake. His second, and really fatal, mistake was declaring war on the US without really knowing much about the country and really not understand its industrial and manufacturing capabilities. He paid far too much attention to the political back-and-forth between Roosevelt, members of his staff and the Republicans and thought the US was weak, wishy-washy and indecisive. He completely underestimated how incredibly angry we were after Pearl Harbor and how, by the late fall of 1941, we were looking for a reason to help out the British. Had he played it differently he could have prevented the US from entering the war in Europe for another year or so, finished of Russia (probably) and had the full force of his military ready for the Americans when we showed up. Or, he could have taken the initiative and tried to take the battle to us here in the US (which he did ultimately plan to do). Luckily for the world at large, he did not listen to his generals, he attacked Stalin and declared war on the US, which pretty much sealed his fate.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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26-04-2011, 07:11 PM
 
RE: Control.
(20-04-2011 11:34 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  Whenever I talk about, watch about, read about anything to do with conspiracy theories, ufos, government secrets, etc I get a hot feeling at the back of my neck which quickly turns to a dire sense of dread, the feeling of there being something in the room and an extreme urge to move on to another topic.

If I don't move to another topic the dread grows, as does the hot feeling, which often turns to abdominal pains and inability to focus the eyes.

That is all.
I wouldn't worry about it too awful much. It just means the spy satellites have locked onto your position and are now watching you enjoy your swim. Smile


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