Conversation In The Womb
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04-04-2015, 10:41 AM
Conversation In The Womb
Baby 1: And you, you believe in life after birth?

Baby 2: Absolutely. It’s obvious that life after birth exists. We are here to become stronger and to get ready for whatever awaits us next.

Baby 1: This is absurd. There is nothing after birth! What would life look like outside the womb!

Baby 2: Well, there are many stories about the other side. I’ve heard there is a blaze of light there, an intense and profound feeling of joy with deep emotions, thousands of things to live for… For example, I’ve heard that we’ll eat with our mouth there.

Baby 1: That’s silly. We have an umbilical cord and that is how we eat. Everyone knows that we don’t use our mouth to eat! And, on top of that, no one has ever come back from the other world. Those stories are all coming from naive people. Life just ends at birth. Period. That’s the way it is and we must accept it.

Baby 2: Alright, then allow me to think differently. That’s for sure, I have no idea what life after birth looks like, and I can’t prove anything to you. But I like to believe that in the next world, we’ll be able to see our mother and that she will take care of us.

Baby 1: “Mother”? You mean that you believe in “Mother”? Oh! So where is she?

Baby 2: Everywhere, don’t you see it! She is everywhere, all around us. We are part of her and it’s thanks to her that we are living right now. Without her, we wouldn’t be here.

Baby 1: This is ridiculous! I’ve never seen any mother so it’s obvious that she doesn’t exist.

Baby 2: I don’t agree. That’s your way of seeing things. Because sometimes when everything quiets down a little bit, we can hear her sing. We can feel her hugging our world! I’m pretty sure that our life will start after birth.

http://steverebus.com/2015/04/03/convers...-the-womb/

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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04-04-2015, 11:00 AM
RE: Conversation In The Womb
Since your completely irrelevant post implies that a baby is not alive (yet can hold a conversation), can we assume are a pro-choice Christian?

don't believe everything you think
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04-04-2015, 11:04 AM
RE: Conversation In The Womb
All in all, a terrible analogy.

One empirical means for these oddly-intelligent twins to tell what's going on, as you point out, would be audio cues. Studies show that a significant amount of sound penetrates the womb, which shapes speech patterns even before birth. These would be verifiable to both twins, with them able (with their exaggerated abilities to communicate) to point the sounds in question out to each other.

The existence of the outside, objectively experienced phenomenon within the sphere of the senses makes this is a very bad analogy for belief in the existence of some sort of god.

Note also what this scenario with its strangely talkative fetuses does NOT contain:

Commandments to hate your gay twins.
Commandments to stone your twins to death for various crimes.
Commandments to donate 10% of your wealth to the people saying that there's life after birth, or else.
Commandments to behave or believe in this or that or the other way, or suffer for it in your post-birth life.
Any educational or society institutions for believers to corrupt or undermine as a consequence of their belief.

This makes fetal belief in a mother an even poorer analogy for Christianity, because here it is a purely academic question. Nothing is riding on it at all. On the one hand, incorrectly denying carries no consequences beyond birth. On the other, incorrectly believing causes no harm to yourself or others prior to birth.

... and, of course, you chose your example as something where we KNEW that the skeptic was wrong. If we'd instead chosen the example of, say, cattle debating their potentially bright future as they were herded into the slaughter house, the moral of the story would be quite different. What's lacking here is any evidence one way or the other as to WHICH metaphor (if either) is the more accurate one.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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04-04-2015, 11:10 AM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2015 02:01 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Conversation In The Womb
Thanks for the nice fiction, and the failed attempts at making an analogy. So many examples the *fallacy of the false analogy* in one place deserves an award. If you really think that infants, in utero, have verbal ability, then you're even more uneducated than I thought. Jumping to pre-conceived ideas, for which there is not now, nor ever will be, a shred of evidence, is just stupid. Some day you should take a class in Ancient History or Biblical Studies, and learn about how and when and why the concept of immortality began to evolve. And yes it evolved, a lot. The ancient Hebrew nation called Israel did not buy "eternal lfe" ... their concepts were FAR different than yours, or other Bible Thumpers. You could read Bart Ehrman's : "How Jesus Became God: The Exaltation of a Jewish Preacher from Galilee Hardcover – March 25, 2014. or you could just read what I had written with similar concepts, a couple years before : http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid192117

Pardon me while I go make sure the Bunny Trail is spruced up for Jebus-the-Great-Zombie day. Rolleyes

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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04-04-2015, 11:22 AM
RE: Conversation In The Womb
(04-04-2015 10:41 AM)theophilus Wrote:  Baby 1: And you, you believe in life after birth?

Baby 2: Absolutely. It’s obvious that life after birth exists. We are here to become stronger and to get ready for whatever awaits us next.

Baby 1: This is absurd. There is nothing after birth! What would life look like outside the womb!

Baby 2: Well, there are many stories about the other side. I’ve heard there is a blaze of light there, an intense and profound feeling of joy with deep emotions, thousands of things to live for… For example, I’ve heard that we’ll eat with our mouth there.

Baby 1: That’s silly. We have an umbilical cord and that is how we eat. Everyone knows that we don’t use our mouth to eat! And, on top of that, no one has ever come back from the other world. Those stories are all coming from naive people. Life just ends at birth. Period. That’s the way it is and we must accept it.

Baby 2: Alright, then allow me to think differently. That’s for sure, I have no idea what life after birth looks like, and I can’t prove anything to you. But I like to believe that in the next world, we’ll be able to see our mother and that she will take care of us.

Baby 1: “Mother”? You mean that you believe in “Mother”? Oh! So where is she?

Baby 2: Everywhere, don’t you see it! She is everywhere, all around us. We are part of her and it’s thanks to her that we are living right now. Without her, we wouldn’t be here.

Baby 1: This is ridiculous! I’ve never seen any mother so it’s obvious that she doesn’t exist.

Baby 2: I don’t agree. That’s your way of seeing things. Because sometimes when everything quiets down a little bit, we can hear her sing. We can feel her hugging our world! I’m pretty sure that our life will start after birth.

http://steverebus.com/2015/04/03/convers...-the-womb/

Baby 1: So what did you think of that Aliens movie ?

Baby 2: Awesome !!!

Baby 1: Do you think we'll bust out of the womb like that ?

Baby 2: I don't know. I've been kicking a lot, but I don't think I'm that strong yet.

Baby 1: My new brain cells just gave me calculus.

Baby 2: Very cool. I seem to have learned a new language in the past 5 minutes.

Baby 1: What's your stance on gun control ?

Baby 2: It's a firm stance with my legs shoulder width apart.

Baby 1: You would not believe the fucked up post I somehow read on a forum site.

Baby 2: It was pure stupidity wasn't it.

Baby 1: You read it too ?

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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04-04-2015, 11:25 AM
RE: Conversation In The Womb
As is usual for christian analogies, this one fails because the writer doesn't seem to understand what it is about the analogy that drives toward the conclusion. Basically, something has been written, but the people who agree with it, don't understand why they do.

Let's strip away the niceties, here; Baby 1 is an atheist, and Baby 2 is a christian, and this whole thing is one big screed about how obvious god is, yet the atheist doesn't see it. But within the bounds of the scenario, does either baby have any firm understanding or evidence that there's life outside the womb? No, not one bit. The whole reason we find Baby 1's position untenable is because we have information that neither Baby possesses. We know there's life outside the womb because we have evidence of it, but neither baby has that. Within the context of the story, there's no reason for Baby 2 to hold the position that it does, and Baby 1 is entirely right to reject that claim which has no evidence.

And Baby 2's dialogue isn't any reason to believe him, it's all just a series of assertions about what life after birth will be like, with no supporting evidence or even a rationale as to why Baby 2 believes it. He's just saying things for which he has no basis, and the fact that he's right is purely coincidental, nothing more.

Essentially the properly read message of this analogy is: "Boy, won't you feel embarrassed if I turn out to be right, completely by accident!" Rolleyes
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04-04-2015, 01:13 PM
RE: Conversation In The Womb
I wonder if the mother will torture the non believing baby for its whole life.
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04-04-2015, 01:32 PM
RE: Conversation In The Womb
(04-04-2015 10:41 AM)theophilus Wrote:  Baby 1: And you, you believe in life after birth?

Baby 2: Absolutely. It’s obvious that life after birth exists. We are here to become stronger and to get ready for whatever awaits us next.

Baby 1: This is absurd. There is nothing after birth! What would life look like outside the womb!

Baby 2: Well, there are many stories about the other side. I’ve heard there is a blaze of light there, an intense and profound feeling of joy with deep emotions, thousands of things to live for… For example, I’ve heard that we’ll eat with our mouth there.

Baby 1: That’s silly. We have an umbilical cord and that is how we eat. Everyone knows that we don’t use our mouth to eat! And, on top of that, no one has ever come back from the other world. Those stories are all coming from naive people. Life just ends at birth. Period. That’s the way it is and we must accept it.

Baby 2: Alright, then allow me to think differently. That’s for sure, I have no idea what life after birth looks like, and I can’t prove anything to you. But I like to believe that in the next world, we’ll be able to see our mother and that she will take care of us.

Baby 1: “Mother”? You mean that you believe in “Mother”? Oh! So where is she?

Baby 2: Everywhere, don’t you see it! She is everywhere, all around us. We are part of her and it’s thanks to her that we are living right now. Without her, we wouldn’t be here.

Baby 1: This is ridiculous! I’ve never seen any mother so it’s obvious that she doesn’t exist.

Baby 2: I don’t agree. That’s your way of seeing things. Because sometimes when everything quiets down a little bit, we can hear her sing. We can feel her hugging our world! I’m pretty sure that our life will start after birth.

http://steverebus.com/2015/04/03/convers...-the-womb/

Oh FFS!

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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04-04-2015, 01:41 PM
RE: Conversation In The Womb
(04-04-2015 10:41 AM)theophilus Wrote:  Baby 1: And you, you believe in life after birth?

Baby 2: Absolutely. It’s obvious that life after birth exists. We are here to become stronger and to get ready for whatever awaits us next.

Baby 1: This is absurd. There is nothing after birth! What would life look like outside the womb!

Baby 2: Well, there are many stories about the other side. I’ve heard there is a blaze of light there, an intense and profound feeling of joy with deep emotions, thousands of things to live for… For example, I’ve heard that we’ll eat with our mouth there.

Baby 1: That’s silly. We have an umbilical cord and that is how we eat. Everyone knows that we don’t use our mouth to eat! And, on top of that, no one has ever come back from the other world. Those stories are all coming from naive people. Life just ends at birth. Period. That’s the way it is and we must accept it.

Baby 2: Alright, then allow me to think differently. That’s for sure, I have no idea what life after birth looks like, and I can’t prove anything to you. But I like to believe that in the next world, we’ll be able to see our mother and that she will take care of us.

Baby 1: “Mother”? You mean that you believe in “Mother”? Oh! So where is she?

Baby 2: Everywhere, don’t you see it! She is everywhere, all around us. We are part of her and it’s thanks to her that we are living right now. Without her, we wouldn’t be here.

Baby 1: This is ridiculous! I’ve never seen any mother so it’s obvious that she doesn’t exist.

Baby 2: I don’t agree. That’s your way of seeing things. Because sometimes when everything quiets down a little bit, we can hear her sing. We can feel her hugging our world! I’m pretty sure that our life will start after birth.

http://steverebus.com/2015/04/03/convers...-the-womb/

What, are you like 12? This is just dumb.

Miscarriages occur in about 20-25% of pregnancies and possibly even more so these two babies could die before being born. And if this asshole of a god you believe in is omnipotent and omniscient then he's actually responsible for killing millions of unborn babies every year. The greatest abortionist ever.

Besides that, this a piss poor analogy and stupid dialogue.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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04-04-2015, 01:56 PM
RE: Conversation In The Womb
Someone posted this piece of shit on atheistforums.org a while back.

Theists: Can you actually stop using an argument when we debunk it? How hard is it to think of new material?
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