"Conversation" at work part 2
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19-09-2014, 03:08 PM
"Conversation" at work part 2
Background: a Navy chaplain is basically someone who is an assistant pastor, Pastor, minister, father in the delusion of their choice who applied for the chaplain program in the military. Take for example the Protestant ministry, they supply X number of personnel to fill Protestant chaplain slots within the military. Don't get me wrong, these chaplains do good things for our soldiers, sailors and airmen. Basically they are an overpaid social worker who provides counsel, and a shoulder to cry upon in your time of turmoil. They also provide marriage counseling, marriage enrichment programs, and of course serve up the Lord by providing church services by specific denomination. They walk in off the street as an 0-3 (Navy Lieutenant) which annoys me greatly. They do not stand duty, they do not run a division, yet whenever the command needs leadership training, or ethics training, these tasks are traditionally given to chaplains to do.

So, it is time for our annual mandatory officer leadership and ethics training. So the Senior Chaplain, a commander, sends out an email with an attached PDF file, and says review the attached file so you will be ready for the training next week. So I clicked the PDF file and it is a long-winded dissertation about how in accordance with the Old Testament and the Torah, King David had his own ethical dilemma when he had a sexual relationship with the wife of one of his soldiers, while that soldier was out at battle. Every single page referenced King David and lessons we can learn from him. This annoyed me greatly as you see in the email I sent him.


CDR,

As I looked over the mando training PDF file I must admit it
bothered me. It is centered around a story from a philosophical book based
on a transcendental anthropocentric belief system that was fabricated by
Judaen Priests in approx. 550 BCE (OT, NT was fabricated by mostly anonymous
authors between 60-150 CE). Since this book is riddled with pseudepigrapha,
interpolations, parables and allegorical writings I fail to see its
relevance for teaching leadership or ethics. There are many "teachings" in
the OT and NT which are hardly ethical or moral. Surely there is a
non-biblical leadership source we could review in relation to this training.
I understand you are the chaplain, and view the world through your belief
system, but the crew is made up of people from diverse backgrounds and
belief/non belief systems. In my humble opinion, If we centered the training
around military ethics or leadership principles and leave out faith; the
belief in something without evidence, it may be viewed as more appropriate
from those outside of your specific personal faith of choice..

I just have a hard time understanding why we had to go all the way back to
King david, instead of the plethora of modern day examples we could choose
from to make the necessary point. It would be no different than quoting a
story about Muhammad from the Qu'ran, for example one of the Surah chapters
as indication of ethics, or one of the delusional scientology books of
leadership principles. They may all have a good point here and there, but
none should be the center of military training outside of the chapel. I hope
I haven't come across the wrong way, I am merely pointing out the grey area
of separating church and state, religious ideology and military training.
Since it is mandatory, we don't have a choice but to attend, and listen to
training centered around a story based on a book that we all don't believe
is true, or even relevant.

To expound: David was, according to the Bible, the second king of the United
Kingdom of Israel and Judah, and according to the New Testament Gospels of
Matthew and Luke, an ancestor of Jesus.

Several problems; Gospels of Matthew and Luke were not even written by
Matthew or Luke, thus an anonymous person/group wrote these books about
David and Jesus. Speaking of Jesus, there is zero evidence that anyone who
wrote of jesus actually knew him, it is all based on hearsay. So we are
basing general military ethics training for officers that come from a wide
sampling of belief systems, centered around a story from a religious book,
in my opinion, not appropriate outside of the Chapel. No one likes to be
"that guy" that points out things related to religion within the military,
but I feel the moral obligation to do so. Thanks for listening..

V/R
CWO4 ###### ########, USN

he replied and said, thank you for your keen analysis and observation of the PDF file. Could you give me a call? I would love to have a face to face with you on this.


I replied Absolutely Sir, Unfortunately I am starting leave right now for a week, but when I get back we can sit down at your earliest convenience and discuss whatever you like.



....I can't wait Big Grin

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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19-09-2014, 04:18 PM
RE: "Conversation" at work part 2
He's gonna try to convert youuuuu

Atheism is the only way to truly be free from sin.
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19-09-2014, 04:24 PM
RE: "Conversation" at work part 2
Keep us updated - this could be fun...


"Name me a moral statement made or moral action performed that could not have been made or done, by a non-believer..." - Christopher Hitchens



My youtube musings: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfFoxbz...UVi1pf4B5g
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19-09-2014, 04:33 PM
RE: "Conversation" at work part 2
I would love to be a fly on the wall when this goes down Popcorn

"If there's a single thing that life teaches us, it's that wishing doesn't make it so." - Lev Grossman
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19-09-2014, 06:43 PM (This post was last modified: 19-09-2014 09:10 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: "Conversation" at work part 2
(19-09-2014 03:08 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Background: a Navy chaplain is basically someone who is an assistant pastor, Pastor, minister, father in the delusion of their choice who applied for the chaplain program in the military. Take for example the Protestant ministry, they supply X number of personnel to fill Protestant chaplain slots within the military. Don't get me wrong, these chaplains do good things for our soldiers, sailors and airmen. Basically they are an overpaid social worker who provides counsel, and a shoulder to cry upon in your time of turmoil. They also provide marriage counseling, marriage enrichment programs, and of course serve up the Lord by providing church services by specific denomination. They walk in off the street as an 0-3 (Navy Lieutenant) which annoys me greatly. They do not stand duty, they do not run a division, yet whenever the command needs leadership training, or ethics training, these tasks are traditionally given to chaplains to do.

So, it is time for our annual mandatory officer leadership and ethics training. So the Senior Chaplain, a commander, sends out an email with an attached PDF file, and says review the attached file so you will be ready for the training next week. So I clicked the PDF file and it is a long-winded dissertation about how in accordance with the Old Testament and the Torah, King David had his own ethical dilemma when he had a sexual relationship with the wife of one of his soldiers, while that soldier was out at battle. Every single page referenced King David and lessons we can learn from him. This annoyed me greatly as you see in the email I sent him.


CDR,

As I looked over the mando training PDF file I must admit it
bothered me. It is centered around a story from a philosophical book based
on a transcendental anthropocentric belief system that was fabricated by
Judaen Priests in approx. 550 BCE (OT, NT was fabricated by mostly anonymous
authors between 60-150 CE). Since this book is riddled with pseudepigrapha,
interpolations, parables and allegorical writings I fail to see its
relevance for teaching leadership or ethics. There are many "teachings" in
the OT and NT which are hardly ethical or moral. Surely there is a
non-biblical leadership source we could review in relation to this training.
I understand you are the chaplain, and view the world through your belief
system, but the crew is made up of people from diverse backgrounds and
belief/non belief systems. In my humble opinion, If we centered the training
around military ethics or leadership principles and leave out faith; the
belief in something without evidence, it may be viewed as more appropriate
from those outside of your specific personal faith of choice..

I just have a hard time understanding why we had to go all the way back to
King david, instead of the plethora of modern day examples we could choose
from to make the necessary point. It would be no different than quoting a
story about Muhammad from the Qu'ran, for example one of the Surah chapters
as indication of ethics, or one of the delusional scientology books of
leadership principles. They may all have a good point here and there, but
none should be the center of military training outside of the chapel. I hope
I haven't come across the wrong way, I am merely pointing out the grey area
of separating church and state, religious ideology and military training.
Since it is mandatory, we don't have a choice but to attend, and listen to
training centered around a story based on a book that we all don't believe
is true, or even relevant.

To expound: David was, according to the Bible, the second king of the United
Kingdom of Israel and Judah, and according to the New Testament Gospels of
Matthew and Luke, an ancestor of Jesus.

Several problems; Gospels of Matthew and Luke were not even written by
Matthew or Luke, thus an anonymous person/group wrote these books about
David and Jesus. Speaking of Jesus, there is zero evidence that anyone who
wrote of jesus actually knew him, it is all based on hearsay. So we are
basing general military ethics training for officers that come from a wide
sampling of belief systems, centered around a story from a religious book,
in my opinion, not appropriate outside of the Chapel. No one likes to be
"that guy" that points out things related to religion within the military,
but I feel the moral obligation to do so. Thanks for listening..

V/R
CWO4 ###### ########, USN

he replied and said, thank you for your keen analysis and observation of the PDF file. Could you give me a call? I would love to have a face to face with you on this.


I replied Absolutely Sir, Unfortunately I am starting leave right now for a week, but when I get back we can sit down at your earliest convenience and discuss whatever you like.

....I can't wait Big Grin

Dude hasn't got a chance in hell. It so hilarious when holy-rollers find out non-believers know more about their cults than they do. You could go to the mandatory training and raise your hand and ask if he thinks "US military leadership" should include cutting off the foreskins off 200 of the enemy, to be brought back to a member the leadershipn group as a price for their daughter in marriage.


1 Samuel 18:27
David took his men with him and went out and killed two hundred Philistines and brought back their foreskins. They counted out the full number to the king so that David might become the king's son-in-law. Then Saul gave him his daughter Michal in marriage.

Apparently it's ok to just go out and kill men as trophies, hack them up, and bring back some of their parts. And he wants to learn ethics from him. Alrighty then. Facepalm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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19-09-2014, 07:23 PM
RE: "Conversation" at work part 2
I am gonna.....

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"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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23-09-2014, 08:06 PM
RE: "Conversation" at work part 2
(19-09-2014 03:08 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Background: a Navy chaplain is basically someone who is an assistant pastor, Pastor, minister, father in the delusion of their choice who applied for the chaplain program in the military. Take for example the Protestant ministry, they supply X number of personnel to fill Protestant chaplain slots within the military. Don't get me wrong, these chaplains do good things for our soldiers, sailors and airmen. Basically they are an overpaid social worker who provides counsel, and a shoulder to cry upon in your time of turmoil. They also provide marriage counseling, marriage enrichment programs, and of course serve up the Lord by providing church services by specific denomination. They walk in off the street as an 0-3 (Navy Lieutenant) which annoys me greatly. They do not stand duty, they do not run a division, yet whenever the command needs leadership training, or ethics training, these tasks are traditionally given to chaplains to do.

So, it is time for our annual mandatory officer leadership and ethics training. So the Senior Chaplain, a commander, sends out an email with an attached PDF file, and says review the attached file so you will be ready for the training next week. So I clicked the PDF file and it is a long-winded dissertation about how in accordance with the Old Testament and the Torah, King David had his own ethical dilemma when he had a sexual relationship with the wife of one of his soldiers, while that soldier was out at battle. Every single page referenced King David and lessons we can learn from him. This annoyed me greatly as you see in the email I sent him.


CDR,

As I looked over the mando training PDF file I must admit it
bothered me. It is centered around a story from a philosophical book based
on a transcendental anthropocentric belief system that was fabricated by
Judaen Priests in approx. 550 BCE (OT, NT was fabricated by mostly anonymous
authors between 60-150 CE). Since this book is riddled with pseudepigrapha,
interpolations, parables and allegorical writings I fail to see its
relevance for teaching leadership or ethics. There are many "teachings" in
the OT and NT which are hardly ethical or moral. Surely there is a
non-biblical leadership source we could review in relation to this training.
I understand you are the chaplain, and view the world through your belief
system, but the crew is made up of people from diverse backgrounds and
belief/non belief systems. In my humble opinion, If we centered the training
around military ethics or leadership principles and leave out faith; the
belief in something without evidence, it may be viewed as more appropriate
from those outside of your specific personal faith of choice..

I just have a hard time understanding why we had to go all the way back to
King david, instead of the plethora of modern day examples we could choose
from to make the necessary point. It would be no different than quoting a
story about Muhammad from the Qu'ran, for example one of the Surah chapters
as indication of ethics, or one of the delusional scientology books of
leadership principles. They may all have a good point here and there, but
none should be the center of military training outside of the chapel. I hope
I haven't come across the wrong way, I am merely pointing out the grey area
of separating church and state, religious ideology and military training.
Since it is mandatory, we don't have a choice but to attend, and listen to
training centered around a story based on a book that we all don't believe
is true, or even relevant.

To expound: David was, according to the Bible, the second king of the United
Kingdom of Israel and Judah, and according to the New Testament Gospels of
Matthew and Luke, an ancestor of Jesus.

Several problems; Gospels of Matthew and Luke were not even written by
Matthew or Luke, thus an anonymous person/group wrote these books about
David and Jesus. Speaking of Jesus, there is zero evidence that anyone who
wrote of jesus actually knew him, it is all based on hearsay. So we are
basing general military ethics training for officers that come from a wide
sampling of belief systems, centered around a story from a religious book,
in my opinion, not appropriate outside of the Chapel. No one likes to be
"that guy" that points out things related to religion within the military,
but I feel the moral obligation to do so. Thanks for listening..

V/R
CWO4 ###### ########, USN

he replied and said, thank you for your keen analysis and observation of the PDF file. Could you give me a call? I would love to have a face to face with you on this.


I replied Absolutely Sir, Unfortunately I am starting leave right now for a week, but when I get back we can sit down at your earliest convenience and discuss whatever you like.



....I can't wait Big Grin
Good luck. I hope all turns out well, but I'm afraid you are toast.

Sapere aude
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23-09-2014, 08:10 PM
RE: "Conversation" at work part 2
(23-09-2014 08:06 PM)f stop Wrote:  
(19-09-2014 03:08 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Background: a Navy chaplain is basically someone who is an assistant pastor, Pastor, minister, father in the delusion of their choice who applied for the chaplain program in the military. Take for example the Protestant ministry, they supply X number of personnel to fill Protestant chaplain slots within the military. Don't get me wrong, these chaplains do good things for our soldiers, sailors and airmen. Basically they are an overpaid social worker who provides counsel, and a shoulder to cry upon in your time of turmoil. They also provide marriage counseling, marriage enrichment programs, and of course serve up the Lord by providing church services by specific denomination. They walk in off the street as an 0-3 (Navy Lieutenant) which annoys me greatly. They do not stand duty, they do not run a division, yet whenever the command needs leadership training, or ethics training, these tasks are traditionally given to chaplains to do.

So, it is time for our annual mandatory officer leadership and ethics training. So the Senior Chaplain, a commander, sends out an email with an attached PDF file, and says review the attached file so you will be ready for the training next week. So I clicked the PDF file and it is a long-winded dissertation about how in accordance with the Old Testament and the Torah, King David had his own ethical dilemma when he had a sexual relationship with the wife of one of his soldiers, while that soldier was out at battle. Every single page referenced King David and lessons we can learn from him. This annoyed me greatly as you see in the email I sent him.


CDR,

As I looked over the mando training PDF file I must admit it
bothered me. It is centered around a story from a philosophical book based
on a transcendental anthropocentric belief system that was fabricated by
Judaen Priests in approx. 550 BCE (OT, NT was fabricated by mostly anonymous
authors between 60-150 CE). Since this book is riddled with pseudepigrapha,
interpolations, parables and allegorical writings I fail to see its
relevance for teaching leadership or ethics. There are many "teachings" in
the OT and NT which are hardly ethical or moral. Surely there is a
non-biblical leadership source we could review in relation to this training.
I understand you are the chaplain, and view the world through your belief
system, but the crew is made up of people from diverse backgrounds and
belief/non belief systems. In my humble opinion, If we centered the training
around military ethics or leadership principles and leave out faith; the
belief in something without evidence, it may be viewed as more appropriate
from those outside of your specific personal faith of choice..

I just have a hard time understanding why we had to go all the way back to
King david, instead of the plethora of modern day examples we could choose
from to make the necessary point. It would be no different than quoting a
story about Muhammad from the Qu'ran, for example one of the Surah chapters
as indication of ethics, or one of the delusional scientology books of
leadership principles. They may all have a good point here and there, but
none should be the center of military training outside of the chapel. I hope
I haven't come across the wrong way, I am merely pointing out the grey area
of separating church and state, religious ideology and military training.
Since it is mandatory, we don't have a choice but to attend, and listen to
training centered around a story based on a book that we all don't believe
is true, or even relevant.

To expound: David was, according to the Bible, the second king of the United
Kingdom of Israel and Judah, and according to the New Testament Gospels of
Matthew and Luke, an ancestor of Jesus.

Several problems; Gospels of Matthew and Luke were not even written by
Matthew or Luke, thus an anonymous person/group wrote these books about
David and Jesus. Speaking of Jesus, there is zero evidence that anyone who
wrote of jesus actually knew him, it is all based on hearsay. So we are
basing general military ethics training for officers that come from a wide
sampling of belief systems, centered around a story from a religious book,
in my opinion, not appropriate outside of the Chapel. No one likes to be
"that guy" that points out things related to religion within the military,
but I feel the moral obligation to do so. Thanks for listening..

V/R
CWO4 ###### ########, USN

he replied and said, thank you for your keen analysis and observation of the PDF file. Could you give me a call? I would love to have a face to face with you on this.


I replied Absolutely Sir, Unfortunately I am starting leave right now for a week, but when I get back we can sit down at your earliest convenience and discuss whatever you like.



....I can't wait Big Grin
Good luck. I hope all turns out well, but I'm afraid you are toast.

Nah, not a thing he can do, I didnt disrespect him, and pointed out a valid issue. Not the first time I have had to be the guy that says "you overstepped the boundary" in regards to religion in the workplace rule of the military.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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23-09-2014, 08:23 PM
RE: "Conversation" at work part 2
This stuff would never fly in private business, passing off Biblical bullshit under the guise of 'leadership and ethics' training. This is a major pet peeve of mine. Angry

I wish you good luck in your upcoming discussion!

Be true to yourself. Heart
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23-09-2014, 08:32 PM (This post was last modified: 23-09-2014 08:36 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: "Conversation" at work part 2
(19-09-2014 04:18 PM)Colourcraze Wrote:  He's gonna try to convert youuuuu

Nope. He ain't allowed.No proseltyzing permitted. There are no evangelists in the Chaplain Corps. Which is kinda GWG's point.

(23-09-2014 08:06 PM)f stop Wrote:  Good luck. I hope all turns out well, but I'm afraid you are toast.

Nah. Hell the communication itself is probably privileged.

#sigh
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