Conversation between atheist daughter and Christian mother
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16-06-2012, 06:39 PM
Rainbow Conversation between atheist daughter and Christian mother
This is a conversation between my mother and I yesterday. Tell me what you guys think. And don’t worry, there’s more to come in part two, which ended just before I blocked her on Facebook.


Me:


I am not mad at you, Mom. I am simply admitting something that I've been afraid to admit before now, that I am not a believer. Believers are people who need to feel that someone stronger than themselves, a higher power, if you will, have their back. I've had a hard life, but I got through it with the help of friends and family, not the hand of an invisible deity that wouldn't approve of who I am if he did exist. It's crazy to care what an imaginary person thinks of you, Mom. I'm not schizophrenic . And no, this is not a rash decision. I have been researching all the inaccuracies of the bible, what Christians say, and what history says for a long time. You're smart enough to agree with me, I think, if you read the right materials. Not that I'm trying to recruit you. I respect your right to believe the way you wish, I just think you would be a lot happier if you didn't believe someone was looking over your shoulder, constantly judging you. It can't be good for the self esteem.

You had my forgiveness a long time ago, Mom. And you don't have to blame yourself for raising an intelligent daughter. I can think for myself, and read for myself, and learn for myself. I believe in reason. I hate that it practically panics you when I admit that I'm not a Christian. You are so much smarter than that. I choose to lead a good life, take care of the people I love, and leave a legacy of peace. And as for the enemy, there is no enemy except the darker side of human nature. Man created the ‘enemy' as a scapegoat. I am not afraid to admit that I have a dark side, and I'm not going to blame it on a demon or a snake or a fallen angel. I know I don't normally talk so openly about these things, but I hate to see you sending out prayer requests when I don't need them. I saw that. Stop it. I love you, and I want you to be happy. I know I am.



Mom’s reply:



I won't stop bc I love you. You loved the Lord as a child. It was my disobedience that brought the curse on me and it will be my prayers along with all the prayers if HIS SAINTS that will release it in Jesus name.




Me:





I was force fed the lord as a child and I needed it then because I was in such a FUBAR situation. I thought I needed the higher power to lean on because I didn't have an adult in my life I could trust. I am that adult now. I trust myself, and I trust many of my friends and family. You were indoctrinated as a child, and so was I, but I've seen the reason since then. Do you really blame yourself because of your situation? You were beaten more than me! And raised in such a toxic atmosphere. I guess I can understand why you still need it, but I don't anymore. like I said, I'll still respect your right to believe, though I'm sad that you don't feel strong enough to stand on your own. You are, you know.




Mom:



THE JOY OF THE LORD IS MY STRENGTH





Me:


No need to shout, Mom. I'm not attacking you, and neither is Satan. I'm going to bed now. I love you.



Mom:


I know your not attacking me princess. But ur wrong about Satan. There is power in prayer so I'll just count it all as joy. I love you too my daughter

Please dint air our dirty laundry out to so many ppl Princess. I'll be praying for all those ppl that made those comments as well as fir u that the Lord will open ur eyes and see the lies. If u indeed love me please stop slandering me. I luv u



Me:

In case you didn't notice last night, I was trying to speak privately, hence the messages instead of posts. You are the one who kept posting in public, not me, and other people can see what you posted. use the private messages next time you have something to say. I am deeply offended that you think I'm slandering you when you are the one who started commenting publicly in the first place. Learn to use Facebook properly, and don't worry about what other people think about me because i couldn't care less. Try not to care what people think about you and you'll feel better.



Oh and stop trolling pages I visit. I am allowed to vent, and no one knows on that page that you are my mother. I'm not going to embarrass you like that. Please afford me the same courtesy.



Mom:


U already did my love. & I wasn't trolling pages honey I was going to talk to u in ur message page & all the messages were there. Why r u attacking me?

And the public posts weren't just for u. If u haven't noticed I post stuff all the time.



Me:


I'm not attacking you, Mom. I love you, and that is all that should matter. Let's agree to disagree on the matter of faith as we have about my sexuality; it seems to be the easiest rout. I respect that you're going to pray for me and ask others to pray for me. You'll be in my thoughts too.



Mom:


Ok but please don't air out anymore of our laundry. I didn't mention who I wanted prayer for. All anybody knows is it's someone special to me. But now all of ur FB world knows about me. If u've forgiven me Sarah then why do that to me? I just want to understand. I'm not worried so much about what u think because I know what My Loed is capable of. But ask urself one question: what if ur wrong? That's all I want to speak about this. But I don't want to be in your thoughts if u truly believe the words u spoke. I will settle for ur prayers when that time comes to you. I'll luv u always.


Me:





Do any of your friends visit an atheist Facebook page, Mom? For that matter, how many of your friends are mine? Come on now, you must know that they can't actually see my status updates unless you repost them. You're not reposting, are you? And I'm not actually friends with any one person on The Thinking Atheist. They are simply a community with whom I share an interest. They have no idea who you are, or even who I am. If they were to click on my name, they would see nothing but basic info because they are not linked to me. The same goes for you. Try clicking on one of their names, if you don't believe me. Unless they've made their page completely public, you won't be able to view anything about them.

Consider this, Mom. What if you are wrong? You were brought into Christianity when you were young, just like me. If you were born elsewhere in the world, you would be brought up in the religion of that region. There are so many different faiths, so many beliefs, that they contradict each other on a daily basis. Before you start praying for me and hoping that one day I'll come back to Christ, read some of the things I've read. It's the best way to hold an intelligent debate. Again, I love you very much.




Mom:


Sarah, who r u trying to convince? I know I'm not wrong bc Jesus lives in my heart. I'm thru debating with u honey. I do love u very much. Theres only one God. I pray for u daily and know I do it bc I love u.



Me:




I don't need to convince anyone. I think the problem is we're both stubborn and we both want to make our point. Besides, I enjoy debating. it's nothing against you, I promise. Intelligent conversation is something I crave. You're only filling that void for me, nothing else.




Mom:




I won't fill it anymore. My point was made when the Lord created this earth that we live in & when He hung in the tree for u & me. I do not want to have this debate with u anymore.



Me:


Then stop sending me messages. I dropped it already and found someone else to talk to.




Mom:




I was replying back to your message.I'm done







This is a conversation between my mother and I yesterday. Tell me what you guys think. And don’t worry, there’s more to come in part two, which ended just before I blocked her on Facebook.

Me:

I am not mad at you, Mom. I am simply admitting something that I've been afraid to admit before now, that I am not a believer. Believers are people who need to feel that someone stronger than themselves, a higher power, if you will, have their back. I've had a hard life, but I got through it with the help of friends and family, not the hand of an invisible deity that wouldn't approve of who I am if he did exist. It's crazy to care what an imaginary person thinks of you, Mom. I'm not schizophrenic . And no, this is not a rash decision. I have been researching all the inaccuracies of the bible, what Christians say, and what history says for a long time. You're smart enough to agree with me, I think, if you read the right materials. Not that I'm trying to recruit you. I respect your right to believe the way you wish, I just think you would be a lot happier if you didn't believe someone was looking over your shoulder, constantly judging you. It can't be good for the self esteem.

You had my forgiveness a long time ago, Mom. And you don't have to blame yourself for raising an intelligent daughter. I can think for myself, and read for myself, and learn for myself. I believe in reason. I hate that it practically panics you when I admit that I'm not a Christian. You are so much smarter than that. I choose to lead a good life, take care of the people I love, and leave a legacy of peace. And as for the enemy, there is no enemy except the darker side of human nature. Man created the ‘enemy' as a scapegoat. I am not afraid to admit that I have a dark side, and I'm not going to blame it on a demon or a snake or a fallen angel. I know I don't normally talk so openly about these things, but I hate to see you sending out prayer requests when I don't need them. I saw that. Stop it. I love you, and I want you to be happy. I know I am.



Mom’s reply:

I won't stop bc I love you. You loved the Lord as a child. It was my disobedience that brought the curse on me and it will be my prayers along with all the prayers if HIS SAINTS that will release it in Jesus name.


Me:



I was force fed the lord as a child and I needed it then because I was in such a FUBAR situation. I thought I needed the higher power to lean on because I didn't have an adult in my life I could trust. I am that adult now. I trust myself, and I trust many of my friends and family. You were indoctrinated as a child, and so was I, but I've seen the reason since then. Do you really blame yourself because of your situation? You were beaten more than me! And raised in such a toxic atmosphere. I guess I can understand why you still need it, but I don't anymore. like I said, I'll still respect your right to believe, though I'm sad that you don't feel strong enough to stand on your own. You are, you know.


Mom:

THE JOY OF THE LORD IS MY STRENGTH



Me:


No need to shout, Mom. I'm not attacking you, and neither is Satan. I'm going to bed now. I love you.



Mom:

I know your not attacking me princess. But ur wrong about Satan. There is power in prayer so I'll just count it all as joy. I love you too my daughter




Please dint air our dirty laundry out to so many ppl Princess. I'll be praying for all those ppl that made those comments as well as fir u that the Lord will open ur eyes and see the lies. If u indeed love me please stop slandering me. I luv u



Me:

In case you didn't notice last night, I was trying to speak privately, hence the messages instead of posts. You are the one who kept posting in public, not me, and other people can see what you posted. use the private messages next time you have something to say. I am deeply offended that you think I'm slandering you when you are the one who started commenting publicly in the first place. Learn to use Facebook properly, and don't worry about what other people think about me because i couldn't care less. Try not to care what people think about you and you'll feel better.



Oh and stop trolling pages I visit. I am allowed to vent, and no one knows on that page that you are my mother. I'm not going to embarrass you like that. Please afford me the same courtesy.



Mom:

U already did my love. & I wasn't trolling pages honey I was going to talk to u in ur message page & all the messages were there. Why r u attacking me?

And the public posts weren't just for u. If u haven't noticed I post stuff all the time.



Me:

I'm not attacking you, Mom. I love you, and that is all that should matter. Let's agree to disagree on the matter of faith as we have about my sexuality; it seems to be the easiest rout. I respect that you're going to pray for me and ask others to pray for me. You'll be in my thoughts too.



Mom:

Ok but please don't air out anymore of our laundry. I didn't mention who I wanted prayer for. All anybody knows is it's someone special to me. But now all of ur FB world knows about me. If u've forgiven me Sarah then why do that to me? I just want to understand. I'm not worried so much about what u think because I know what My Loed is capable of. But ask urself one question: what if ur wrong? That's all I want to speak about this. But I don't want to be in your thoughts if u truly believe the words u spoke. I will settle for ur prayers when that time comes to you. I'll luv u always.

Me:


Do any of your friends visit an atheist Facebook page, Mom? For that matter, how many of your friends are mine? Come on now, you must know that they can't actually see my status updates unless you repost them. You're not reposting, are you? And I'm not actually friends with any one person on The Thinking Atheist. They are simply a community with whom I share an interest. They have no idea who you are, or even who I am. If they were to click on my name, they would see nothing but basic info because they are not linked to me. The same goes for you. Try clicking on one of their names, if you don't believe me. Unless they've made their page completely public, you won't be able to view anything about them.

Consider this, Mom. What if you are wrong? You were brought into Christianity when you were young, just like me. If you were born elsewhere in the world, you would be brought up in the religion of that region. There are so many different faiths, so many beliefs, that they contradict each other on a daily basis. Before you start praying for me and hoping that one day I'll come back to Christ, read some of the things I've read. It's the best way to hold an intelligent debate. Again, I love you very much.




Mom:

Sarah, who r u trying to convince? I know I'm not wrong bc Jesus lives in my heart. I'm thru debating with u honey. I do love u very much. Theres only one God. I pray for u daily and know I do it bc I love u.



Me:

I don't need to convince anyone. I think the problem is we're both stubborn and we both want to make our point. Besides, I enjoy debating. it's nothing against you, I promise. Intelligent conversation is something I crave. You're only filling that void for me, nothing else.



Mom:

I won't fill it anymore. My point was made when the Lord created this earth that we live in & when He hung in the tree for u & me. I do not want to have this debate with u anymore.

Me:


Then stop sending me messages. I dropped it already and found someone else to talk to.


Mom:


I was replying back to your message.I'm done






















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16-06-2012, 06:58 PM
Rainbow part 2 of atheist daughter christian mother
Me:


Hey Mom, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it has come to Nita's attention that you have **** and ******* (my nieces) as your profile picture, and she's not happy with it. She is politely requesting that you take it down. I know this will probably hurt your feelings, but well, I don't know what to say about that. Nita is Nita, and I respect her wishes. Love you!



Mom:


I love Nita and I'm sorry she feels that way but I'm very proud of my granddaughters. U gave me that pic knowing how she felt and I even told u u was using it as well, of course, u've seen it.. I have made bad decisions in the past out of fear & I know that's a problem with her but it's not mine. Im sorry for the pain they've caused u all I truly am. I wish u would relate all if what I'm saying to Nita whether u agree with me or not. I may never be able to hold my grandbabies in this life but I cherish their pictures and I thank God for them every day. I'm sorry baby but this is a decision of love not fear. One day it will be alright for u all too. I luv u very much as well as the rest of my children that I gave birth to.



Me:


Mom, please don't put me in a tough position. You can keep the pictures all you want, she just doesn't want them shared all over Facebook with people she doesn't know. She's very private. Only my friends and family, all of whom she knows, can see my profile pictures. She doesn't know your friends. Feel free to put up a 'proud grandma meme or something, but don't use Emma and Bethany's photo. It's the respectful thing to do.


Mom:


If she doesn't know them than they don't know her. What's the problem. I do live u princess but I didn't put u in a tough position. U put urself there I am so grateful to u for giving me the pics but u knew b4 u gave them 2 me thT she didn't want me 2 have them. I really don't understand that. If she's a Christian we r taught 2 let go of past pains & forgive. It's not the respectful thing 2 do. Respect is knowing I'm human & I am subject 2 making wrong decisions as much as she is. I'm sorry she hates me so much but my luv & pride 4 her will never change except if it grows. I will not bow to the enemy u don't believe in. And FYI just because u don't believe doesn't mean He dint exist. I pray 4all of u every day. And I luv u all very much



Me:


Mom, please take down the picture. Because of this I've already had to take down all of the others, which I've saved to my computer. Please take down the picture or I will have to report the image and have it forcibly taken down. It wasn't mine to give, and I should have known that. She does not want the images on here anymore.



Mom:

I luv u but do what u have to do


Me:


(This is the part where I report the image to Facebook, and she still refuses to take it down. It’s just a Facebook image link, so I won’t include it here.)


Mom:


Do what u can. I'm not removing it . She already hates me what else do I possibly have to lose? I'm sorry. I'm not moving.


Me:


Did you ever think that maybe there might be a chance of redeeming yourself to her the way you have to me someday? This will not help. Don't let what's happening between us cloud your judgment. What you're doing now is illegal. It is against her wishes to have this online, and it should be removed. Please, respect her wishes.


Mom:


It is not illegal Sarah and My Redeemer Lives! This has nothing to do with what's happened to us. And my judgement is (finally) not clouded. I pray u r able to work this out with ur sister. I will not bow my knee to anybody but MY SAVIOR. that's final. Please stop begging it is so beneath u. Be not deceived, God will not be mocked; whatever a man sows that shall he also reap. I'm sorry if this makes u hate me but I love MY LORD more.


Me:


I didn't mean like that, Mom. And yes, it is illegal. The photo is of two minors and you do not have their parents' permission to have the photo online. Remember when you had me brought over state lines when I was seventeen so you wouldn't be charged with kidnapping? Yeah, something like that. Even newspapers have to have the permission of parents to put photos in the paper. In fact, I can remember bringing home release forms to my foster parents to sign. I will beg because I am doing this for my sister and I love her very much. If you truly love her, you will respect her wishes and take it down. I've already gotten over myself and taken down all the pictures I have of the girls, and that was a hard thing for me to do. Like I said, keep the picture, just don't share it in such a public forum. Please. Please. Please. I am not ashamed to beg.


Mom:

How dare u question my love for my daughter?! Beg all u want. I believe I said the word final. I'm sorry I took my eyes off of my Lord bc that is why all of this happened. But here's the truth whether u want to believe it or not: I fought 4 u children for 3 years. I did everything the state of SC told me to do to get u all back. But they decided they wanted the adoption money more. Now u go to Sicial Services and ask to see the file. You'll see I'm telling the truth. As far as respect goes I refuse to disrespect my Lord anymore. That's what got u's in this mess to begin with. Take me to court. I know the Chiefest of All Judges. HE WILL BE MY DEFENDER. I will always love all of u



Me:


Okay, how about a compromise...take the photo down as your profile picture since it's not you anyway, and put it in your albums. your friends can still see it, but not everyone on Facebook will be able to. That's the main worry, Mom. Anytime anyone searches for you on FB, they'll come up with those girls. I know and you know that they won't know who they are, but Nita doesn't use Facebook much and doesn't quite get that concept. Think about it, if Facebook had existed when we were kids and someone used them as their profile picture without your permission, wouldn't you be upset? Think about it like a mother, because that's how Nita is thinking about it. Like I said, you can still show them off easily.


Mom:


I am thinking as a mother. A mother who is proud of her children & grandchildren. God gave u all to me. U came from MY WOMB. I will not compromise!


Me:


******* and **** (Nieces) have nothing to do with your beliefs or mine, Mom! This is about respecting the rights of your other daughter, who wants only to protect her children! Why is that so hard to understand? This has nothing to do with religion. Nita is as Christian as you are! She had the exact same response that you did when we started talking about atheism. She's praying for me just as hard as you are, if not harder! Please, put aside your pride and do what is right by Nita, who is more like you than you will probably ever get to know! She wants them down. Now.


Mom:


No

Btw I'm not going to believe the lie. This has nothing to do with respecting anybody's rights. It has everything to do with bowing to the enemy. I WILL NOT DO IT AGAIN! I pray the Lord will use this to open ur eyes to see who ur enemy really is and how he works. For u and my other daughter who I luv more than life


Me:


Okay, fine. You wanted to hear from Nita, answer her call because she is not happy with you. As for me, lose my number, and don't bother trying to contact me on Facebook because you just lost a daughter over your stupid pride.




So this is what I had to deal with before I blocked my mother (again) from my life. She lost custody of us a long time ago, and she’s been trying to get back into our lives, but it doesn’t look like she’s going to get to now. What do you guys think?

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16-06-2012, 07:24 PM
RE: Conversation between atheist daughter and Christian mother
Hello aunts1384 Smile Just read your entire tale, and I would say it's very sad for both sides (your side and your mother's side). One thing while debating with older theists - it will be extremely hard to change their viewpoint with regards to God. At this stage, they are so dependent on God, they view God as a necessity to survive. Without God, they see themselves as an empty shell, nothing to live for without God. Any slightest hint of a threat to their core beliefs, and they will defend it to the end, desperately of course. It's like how a fish struggles when a lake starts to dry up.

The second part reveals more of both of your relationship it seems. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but you seem to have an estranged relationship with your mother. One might argue that your mother is desperately trying to bring you back to her out of love, but in my opinion that can bring about a more damaged relationship. It's a lose-lose situation. I agree with your compromise though, it's a very good move on your part. It's sad that she is stubborn towards your proposal.

Take care and stay strong. Try to understand how she thinks, find something both of you can agree on, and work from there. It all boils down to "Are you both willing to accept each other?".

Welcome to science. You're gonna like it here - Phil Plait

Have you ever tried taking a comfort blanket away from a small child? - DLJ
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16-06-2012, 07:51 PM (This post was last modified: 16-06-2012 08:04 PM by DLJ.)
RE: Conversation between atheist daughter and Christian mother
What's the word I'm looking for....?
Wow!

I mean, really.... wow!

The only solution that I can see to your mother's behaviour (doing the wrong things for she believes are the right reasons) is RCA (root cause analysis) and you hint at a history of violence.

She is paralysed... (Mark 2) Jesus said pick up your bed and walk; and the man picked up his bed and walked and the crowd said "We have never seen anything like this. Nice trick, are you available for Bar Mitzvahs and weddings?"

The god-crutch she is using can't be just kicked away... she has to decide to throw it away.
But how to get her to the point where she realises that therapy would be a good idea is beyond me.

(btw, you mention the names of your nieces in you second post... you might want to edit.)

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16-06-2012, 08:37 PM
RE: Conversation between atheist daughter and Christian mother
I just realized I pasted the conversation twice in the first part. Sorry guys, I'm new to posting and I can't edit yet. I'm sure you all have figured it out by now. And I probably should have posted this elsewhere, but I wasn't quite sure where it fit. Anyway, hope you enjoyed it.

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16-06-2012, 08:55 PM
RE: Conversation between atheist daughter and Christian mother
As far as I can see you did everything right and there is nothing more you can do.

I suppose it depends on if you really do want a relationship with your mum and what type of relationship you really want. Are you prepared to accept her and her faith? Is seems she will never budge from her stand point.

I don't envy your position.

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17-06-2012, 06:56 AM
RE: Conversation between atheist daughter and Christian mother
Very sad.
I feel sorry for your mother - she seems to be carrying a boatload of guilt with no way to deal with it but through her simplistic religious beliefs.

It grieves me to see how damaged families can be - I think you are probably right doing what you are doing.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-06-2012, 08:07 AM (This post was last modified: 17-06-2012 08:10 AM by Hafnof.)
RE: Conversation between atheist daughter and Christian mother
I don't know you and you don't know me, so take my advice with a big grain of salt. Three suggestions:


1. Don't try to convince your mother of anything in a debate format. Ask her to accept you, but don't rub it in. Don't tell her that what you believe or don't believe is the truth when she thinks its a lie. It sounds like she is a long way from changing her beliefs. Let her believe what she wants to believe, and respect her right to do so if you want her to accept your right to the same. Also, give her space and permission to express her feelings and beliefs - including online. If you don't do this then you can't ask her to give you space either.

2. Don't act as an intermediary between warring family members if you can at all help it. Let them sort out their own differences, and don't get in the middle of things. If you do, your relationship with one or both will surely suffer.

3. In any internet text-based discussion, be ready to let the other person have the last word. If you aren't ready to do that then you run the real risk that the other person won't either and you'll be stuck saying and hearing more and more things that you might regret later on. Try not to say anything when you're too emotionally committed, even if this means walking away from the computer for a few days or not opening up messages from a particular person for a while.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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17-06-2012, 09:09 AM
RE: Conversation between atheist daughter and Christian mother
wow! I am stunned....
Respect for the step you did!! I know it hurts to stop all contact with your mother, even when the relationship is not the best.
Hope you get through this time well.

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17-06-2012, 09:11 AM
RE: Conversation between atheist daughter and Christian mother
Yuck...like a replay of my relationship with my mother...without the religion.

I cut ties with my mother a few years back for similar behavior by her that was/is never going to change for the better. I finally had to just stop trying in order to protect myself...not an easy decision to come to but one that has been very good for my life.

Everything you said was respectful and your points valid. She isn't hearing you...about anything.

Sounds like you would be better off to become a voluntary orphan like I did.

Sucky position to be in but sometimes there are people you HAVE to walk away from.

See here they are, the bruises, some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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