Conversations about Heaven and Hell
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04-01-2015, 06:11 PM
Conversations about Heaven and Hell
So for those that don't know me on the thread from my past post but me and my father have not seen eye to eye for quite some time now. This following my coming out as an atheist. Since my new look on life and such, some past conversations from my childhood have been coming back to me. Most of these have to do with religion of course being that I was raised in a Methodist Baptist home. One of the conversations that came back to mind this evening was one about heaven and hell.

Now at this time I was around the age of 10 and we had just left our church service. Typically my parents would quiz us on the sermon to see if we had paid attention. Now what would happen if you didn't pay attention or got an answer wrong you ask? You would be grounded until you wrote a paper on some random passage telling why it's great. However, I digress. So my father was going over why we should listen to our elders and pushing the fact that this is why we do these thing in order to avoid hell. At one point in the conversation I asked if everyone in our family would make it to heaven seeing as we all go to church. He proceeds to give me the whole have to confess your sins and mean it ya know the normal bs. Then it gets interesting.

I go on to present the fact that I would feel sad if I knew some of my friends or family didn't make it in and that they would have to suffer for an eternity. My dad then goes on to explain that in heaven we don't have simple human emotions so when we see someone burning in the lake of fire we wouldn't even fill anything nor have empathy towards them.

Now I just brought this up to my wife and we both realized something. Why is it that so many Christians are so accepting to know that other people will be suffering. Whether someone is a bad person or good I don't like to see people suffer. To have such a horrid outlook on other people seems to be the most immoral thing ever. Never mind the terrible argument of well you sent yourself there but what kind of being or person sits there and accepts that? I think this and this alone is the most sickening thing about religion.

Anyway I just wanted to hear particularly from one of our Christian members on here about this and see how they justify it.
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04-01-2015, 06:50 PM
RE: Conversations about Heaven and Hell
But my friend, don't you know?

We Are All Going To Hell?


Yes it’s true. Every last one of us is going to hell, and it doesn’t matter if you are a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Atheist, or if you belong to any faith at all.

Hell will be our final resting place.

So what the hell is “Hell” anyways? According to both Christian and Muslim resources, Hell can be described as a place of eternal damnation where sinners are tortured in an eternal fire for all of eternity.

The Christians arrive at their concept of Hell according to their literal interpretation of the Book of Revelation in the Holy Bible. They arrive at this conclusion based upon a few specific scriptures which seem to identify a place of eternal torture as Hell.

However, most Christians are actually very uneducated in regards to ancient scriptures and ancient forms of writing. The serious student of ancient scripture will recognize the Book of Revelation as a Gnostic writing, with all the typical connotations of that genre. During the time of Christ, and for centuries afterwards, the Gnostic Christians produced hundreds of writings very similar in writing style to the Book of Revelation.

The religion of the Gnostics was known as gnosis which means “knowledge.” Their writing style was exceptionally appealing to the mind, as they used a stunning method of graphical expression with words. Ripe with allegorical and figurative descriptions, the Gnostics carved out a path for themselves in the ancient religious monochrome of ancient Israel and the Roman-Greco Empire of the 1st to the 4th centuries A.D.

For those of you interested in learning and understand more regarding the Gnostics and their writings, you may wish to view their works within the ancient codices known as The Nag Hammadi Library, which can be viewed online Here

Yet, was it really the fault of the Gnostics whereas modern Christian literalists managed to interpret Hell as a place of eternal damnation in a fiery grave? Also, is it the fault of the ancient Christian literalists from whom Muhammad borrowed the concept of a fiery eternal damnation known as Hell in which he has now terrorized hundreds of millions of Muslims for 1400 years with his Quran?

Well, let’s take a look at the origins of Hell and find out for ourselves.

According to the King James Version of the Holy Bible, the earliest reference to Hell is given in Deuteronomy 32.22. The word which was translated from the Hebrew to the Greek, and then onto the English was sheh-ole, and it carries the meaning as such: “world of the dead; a subterranean retreat, including its accessories and inmates:--grave, pit.”

In the King James Bible, the Old Testament term sheol is translated as hell 31 times. However Sheol was also translated as "grave" 31 times. Sheol is also translated as "pit" three times. The KJV translates Hades as Hell 10 times, and as grave once. Hades is traditionally the Greek word used to mean sheol.

Therefore, according to the oldest reference to Hell, all it means is that it is the grave or a pit for the dead. The description of Hell here is that it is but a prison for those whom have passed away. It is never described as a place of eternal damnation where sinners are subjected to torture forever.

Even in the Gospels, Jesus is not recorded as ever saying that Hell was a fiery place of eternal torture and damnation. However, he does make indeed make statements in relation to hell and fire in Mat 5.22, Mat 18.9, and Mark 9.43 etc. But what did he mean by those statements? Let’s investigate …

In the Gospels the word Hell comes from the word of Ghenna, pronounced gheh'-en-nah of Hebrew origin; valley of the son of Hinnom; ge-henna, or Ge-Hinnom, a valley of Jerusalem, used figuratively as a name for the place or state of everlasting punishment.

You’ll be interested to learn that we already know where this place is, and it is not an ethereal place where Satan dwells, but actually the Jerusalem city dump. The actual place referred to is Hinnom, a deep, narrow ravine separating Mount Zion from the so-called "Hill of Evil Counsel" to the southwest of Jerusalem .

Hinnom is first mentioned in Joshua 15:8: “And the border went up by the valley of the son of Hinnom unto the south side of the Jebusite; the same is Jerusalem: and the border went up to the top of the mountain that lieth before the valley of Hinnom westward, which is at the end of the valley of the giants northward.”

It was formerly the place where the idolatrous Jews burned their children alive as a sacrifice to Moloch and Baal. A particular part of the valley was called Tophet, the "fire-stove" or furnace, where the children were burned. After the Exile, in order to show their abhorrence of the locality, the Jews made this valley the receptacle of the refuse of the city. As with refuse, in those times it was burned to keep down vermin, the obvious offensive odors, to maximize space, and a fire was kept constantly burning there.

Excavations carried out at this site from 1975 to 1980 by an archaeological mission turned up remains of nine burial caves around the ravine. In earlier excavations of the actual dump, it was found that the fire was still smoldering after centuries. More info about this Hell can be found Here.

So now that we have nailed down the history of the Christian concept of Hell, how far would it be to make a jump to the Muslim concept, which is almost identical? Actually, we don’t need to go too far at all.

It is without doubt that Muhammad borrowed much from the Torah and Gospels when he constructed his Quran. Although most Muslims like to deny it, the fact of the matter is there is evidence in existence that Muhammad was influenced by both Jews and Christians during his time. One such Christian is spoken about in the Hadith. His name was Waraqa bin Naufal. There are two very interesting Hadiths regarding this man:

Narrated 'Aisha: Volume 4, Book 55, Number 605: Sahih Al-Bukhari

“The Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospel in Arabic …”


As you can see above, Waraqa bin Naufal used to read the Gospel in Arabic. How did he get a gospel in Arabic? That is answered in another Hadith:

Narrated 'Aisha: Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3: Sahih Al-Bukhari

Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write.


So here we have Waraqa bin Naufal with a Gospel written in Hebrew, and who used to write from this Gospel, and then we suddenly have him reading from a gospel written in Arabic? Was there an Arabic gospel floating around in the time and place of Muhammad back in those days? Apparently, there was.

One such possible Gospel was known as The Arabic Infancy Gospel. Upon reading this gospel we find two outstanding similarities to certain verses within the Quran. Both the Arabic Infancy Gospel and the Quran have Jesus speaking as a baby, and also have Jesus making birds of clay, and then instructing them to fly. Modern scholars agree that the dating of this gospel was sometime in the mid to late 6th century, right around the time of Muhammad.

According to the analysis of textual criticism, the text was originally written in Syriac, a dialect of Aramaic which itself was based upon the Hebrew alphabet. The text became translated into Arabic, probably around the time that Christianity began to spread into the Arabian Peninsula. The narrative of the Arabic Infancy Gospel, particularly the second part concerning the miracles in Egypt , can also be found in the Quran. According to some critical scholarship, its presence in the Quran may be due to the influence the Gospel had among the Arabs.

More information on this gospel can be found Here.

So now we have a link between specific verses in the Quran and specific verses from a gospel which was accessible to Muhammad during his time. This tells us clearly that Muhammad was indeed influenced by Christian theology in Arabia during his time, especially when the Hadith clearly shows an Arabic gospel within his very grasp.

My English version of the Quran mentions hell almost 100 times. Due to its graphical description of Hell, the Quran repeatedly characterizes Hell as a fiery place of eternal torture and damnation. This Quranic description of Hell is almost identical to the orally propagated beliefs of the early century Christians whose descendants have continued this tradition into the modern age, along with Islam.

Yet, this description of Hell as a place of eternal torture just doesn't jibe with the actual history of what Hell really is. Because of this, we find billions of Christians and Muslims being subdued and controlled by a man-made myth for almost 2000 years.

The real Hell is not some fiery place of eternal torture and damnation. We could even say that the real Hell is not even the grave. But damn few of us can say that when we look at all the hatred, wars, killing, and other tragedies befalling the human race today that Hell does not exist, for it certainly does exist.

Hell exists, and it has been running rampant upon the face of the earth for far too long. You can see it in the eyes of the suicide bomber, airplane hijackers, and through the actions of those who behead the innocent in the name of Allah.

Perhaps it’s time for the human race to tell Hell … to go to Hell?

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04-01-2015, 07:03 PM
RE: Conversations about Heaven and Hell
If you won't care about people while they are in hell, why do you care if people go there in the first place ?

Why care about their souls now when you won't care about them later ?

And if you don't care while you're in heaven, then it would seem only logical that god doesn't care either.

If god doesn't care, then it would seem more likely that he will send people to hell, for the hell of it.

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04-01-2015, 09:04 PM
RE: Conversations about Heaven and Hell
(04-01-2015 06:11 PM)MrKrispy601 Wrote:  Typically my parents would quiz us on the sermon to see if we had paid attention.

Sounds like hell.

Quote:My dad then goes on to explain that in heaven we don't have simple human emotions so when we see someone burning in the lake of fire we wouldn't even fill anything nor have empathy towards them.

We'll all be good little sociopaths mindlessly singing the praises of The AllMighty Sociopath for all Eternity.

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05-01-2015, 05:54 AM
RE: Conversations about Heaven and Hell
(04-01-2015 06:11 PM)MrKrispy601 Wrote:  I go on to present the fact that I would feel sad if I knew some of my friends or family didn't make it in and that they would have to suffer for an eternity. My dad then goes on to explain that in heaven we don't have simple human emotions so when we see someone burning in the lake of fire we wouldn't even fill anything nor have empathy towards them.

And here is the problem of heaven and free-will-based apologetics.
  • Hell is justified by free will.
  • Free will is important because hey, you wouldn't want to be a robot, would you?
  • When you die and go to heaven, apparently you lose this free will for infinity years. Don't think about that part.
Now, maybe you don't lose your free will, but your dad's stated position is that you lose the capacity of empathy for anyone not in your tribe. That's your reward from YHWH, the god of super tribalism.


(04-01-2015 06:11 PM)MrKrispy601 Wrote:  Now I just brought this up to my wife and we both realized something. Why is it that so many Christians are so accepting to know that other people will be suffering. Whether someone is a bad person or good I don't like to see people suffer. To have such a horrid outlook on other people seems to be the most immoral thing ever. Never mind the terrible argument of well you sent yourself there but what kind of being or person sits there and accepts that? I think this and this alone is the most sickening thing about religion.

Cognitive dissonance. They were told by Jesus (the super friendly face of God) that hell exists. They have to get those two things to jive somehow. Whether it's perfect justice, the sinner's choice, free will, mysterious ways, or God's will, it needs to be explained


(04-01-2015 06:11 PM)MrKrispy601 Wrote:  Anyway I just wanted to hear particularly from one of our Christian members on here about this and see how they justify it.

You say that, but be prepared for some serious mental gymnastics and/or really offensive explanations.
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06-01-2015, 01:28 AM
RE: Conversations about Heaven and Hell
Why waste your time worrying about a place (both heaven or hell) that do not exist, except in the tortured minds of believers. Once you realize it's all made up, you will stop this self-inflicted mental suffering.

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07-01-2015, 09:06 PM
RE: Conversations about Heaven and Hell
My understanding of Hebrew Hell, the Hell that Christians and Jews believe in, is that it's like this:

1. Sheol
2. Hell

Sheol is a temporary waiting place for both the good and the evil. Some people say there's a division in Sheol between the damned and saved souls. Those who belong to it are known as "Shaedes" (Shay-dees). Your soul is alert and formless while in it.

Judgement day comes in the end times. The dead reanimate and are judged. Those who are deemed un-kosher are thrown into Hell and destroyed by fire. That's the end of them: they gnash teeth a little and then pfft! Hell is a place of *destruction*, meaning it's a paper shredder. Those who are kosher live with God. The universe is destroyed. Heaven (meaning in the presence of God in Christianity) is where people live for all eternity.
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07-01-2015, 10:26 PM
RE: Conversations about Heaven and Hell
(04-01-2015 06:11 PM)MrKrispy601 Wrote:  Why is it that so many Christians are so accepting to know that other people will be suffering. Whether someone is a bad person or good I don't like to see people suffer. To have such a horrid outlook on other people seems to be the most immoral thing ever. Never mind the terrible argument of well you sent yourself there but what kind of being or person sits there and accepts that? I think this and this alone is the most sickening thing about religion.
I had an online chat with a person who was a SDA. He was telling me that on judgement day his god would raise me from the dead to show me that I was wrong, that he did actually exist and then he would kill me again by throwing me into a lake of fire. He said that everyone would be able to witness this judgement. I asked him that given most people on the planet aren't Christians does this mean his god is going to massacre billions of people. He said yeah, but its not big deal because it will happen quickly and won't be painful.
I asked him what the point would be in resurrecting me just so that he could kill me again? He said, so that I could know that I was wrong.
I asked What's the point, when I'm dead again I won't be able to ponder my mistake of not believing?
He said that is just the way it is.

I asked him if he would beg his god not to massacre these people. I asked how he could look at his god in the face again after such a horrific massacre?
He said he would be sad that people chose not to believe but that after judgment, he would continue loving god and live happily in heaven.


It really sounds to me these people are living in La La land.
Their brains have been seriously fucked up by their religion.
But at least they compartmentalise, at least for the most part their willingness to witness a massacre only takes place in the after life.
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07-01-2015, 11:12 PM
RE: Conversations about Heaven and Hell
The notion of heaven is absurd.

Truth seeker.
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