Conversations with a dying Creationist
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30-01-2018, 03:01 PM
RE: Conversations with a dying Creationist
You know, there are atheists who don't accept evolution. Evolution and atheism are totally seperate things. Yes, most atheists do accept evolution but the two are not always together. Also the majority of Christians accept evolution. The head of the Human Genome Project was an evangelical Christian and as crazy as it sounds Pat Robertson, yes that Pat Robertson, has given a nod to evolution. The only reason he realized evolution was a fact was because the geologists who work for his oil company set him straight.

Anyway, it sounds like both of you are having interesting conversations. I'm thinking that this would make an amazing stage play...... "Conversations Between an Atheist and a Creationist" .

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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30-01-2018, 03:48 PM
RE: Conversations with a dying Creationist
(30-01-2018 02:54 PM)kim Wrote:  I think you can discuss anything you want with your friend - he needs your friendship now, more than ever. Shy

Let him know that, though you both have your respective reasoning for belief or non-belief, the important thing is living, right now. Whatever gets each of you through the night, is an individual thing.

You can't make someone believe something, when they just don't.
You can't make someone not believe something, when they just can't.

Don't concentrate on what you can't do, focus on, your personal view and express your satisfaction for your reasoning. If he sees it a different way then, he might be better off going with the reasoning that got him there.

Let him know that he's your friend. He deserves the respect of your sincerity and honesty.

So ... "Who has more faith, me in God? Or you, in evolution?"

Science changes all the time - we learn new things with every discovery. Why would anyone have faith in evolution?

Science does not require faith. Only his god requires faith and it's cool if he's got that covered. Shy

Hang with your friend while you can. He may need your injection of reality to help him fight his illness. Mainly, he needs you around because you won't be helping him out with hollow prayers. You'll be holding his hand like a human being. Shy
Thank you much. I didn't realize how much I needed to hear your second sentence. The responses to the faith question is exactly how I responded. Imagine his confusion when I write to him that I do not 'believe' in Darwin and Darwin never asks anyone to and no one takes Darwin 'on faith'.

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30-01-2018, 03:50 PM
RE: Conversations with a dying Creationist
double post

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31-01-2018, 09:47 AM
RE: Conversations with a dying Creationist
(30-01-2018 12:32 PM)grejen Wrote:  (though, oddly, he accepts that dogs have evolved from wolves)

Evolution and natural selection are not the same thing; in fact they are just the opposite.

https://answersingenesis.org/natural-sel...evolution/

The real disgreement between creationists and evolutionist isn't about science but about history. Creationists believe the world was created by God. Evolutionists believe it developed over a long period of time by natural events. If you hold the second belief you must believe in evolution.

There is one response to your friend that no one has mentioned in this thread. Why don't you listen to him, think about what he has said, and consider the possibility that he might be right?

If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.
Charles Darwin
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31-01-2018, 09:47 AM
RE: Conversations with a dying Creationist
(30-01-2018 02:25 PM)grejen Wrote:  
(30-01-2018 01:28 PM)BikerDude Wrote:  ...
Imagine that you convince him that he will be worm food next week.
Yippie won't that be a great day?
There is no good scenario here.
I'd hop around the room singing "I've seen the light" at full volume.
GLORY HALLELUJAH!
I AM SAVED!

Worm food. An oddly warm and comforting thought. Ever read Shelley's Frankenstein? Unsure
I try to really focus on him being proud of his life and works regardless of it's length or end. I want him to be happy with what he's wrought here and now and not attribute that to something other than himself. Hmmm.. Maybe I should text him that bit.

Also, I can't not defend science. Undecided - yeah emoticons!

Well that's all well and good.
But as an atheist I truely believe that many theists cling to beliefs for their own comfort. It's not about rationality and science.
I'm not so selfish that I put my reasons above others especially a dying person.
If they want or need or even slightly want or need to believe that is more important than my tendencies in that context.

WHY ATHEISTS TERRIFY BELIEVERS
Their presence challenges fundamental defense mechanisms that protect people from fear of death.
https://psmag.com/social-justice/why-ath...-believers

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31-01-2018, 10:26 AM
RE: Conversations with a dying Creationist
(31-01-2018 09:47 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(30-01-2018 12:32 PM)grejen Wrote:  (though, oddly, he accepts that dogs have evolved from wolves)

Evolution and natural selection are not the same thing; in fact they are just the opposite.

They aren't opposites. Natural selection is the process that directs evolution. The derivation of dogs from wolves is an example of artificial selection which takes the tool of natural selection and applies it with intention.

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31-01-2018, 10:54 AM
RE: Conversations with a dying Creationist
(31-01-2018 09:47 AM)theophilus Wrote:  Evolution and natural selection are not the same thing; in fact they are just the opposite.

...

There is one response to your friend that no one has mentioned in this thread. Why don't you listen to him, think about what he has said, and consider the possibility that he might be right?

My my... you are as brave as you are confused.
Of course evolution is not the same thing as natural selection. They are not opposites any more than flora is the opposite of fauna.

As to the possibility that my friend might be right (or at least there might be something to creationism) of course I considered that. This is why I read the Bible! Having done so I went from mere incredulity to total disbelief. Consideration and respect are why I even still converse with him at all regarding these topics. I'm insulted by your insinuation that I've not properly considered the creationist claims.

btw - My friend is not the only theist/creationist I've had extended written debates with. He's just the only one I know personally and have concern for.

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31-01-2018, 11:09 AM
RE: Conversations with a dying Creationist
(31-01-2018 09:47 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  Well that's all well and good.
But as an atheist I truely believe that many theists cling to beliefs for their own comfort. It's not about rationality and science.
I'm not so selfish that I put my reasons above others especially a dying person.
If they want or need or even slightly want or need to believe that is more important than my tendencies in that context.

WHY ATHEISTS TERRIFY BELIEVERS
Their presence challenges fundamental defense mechanisms that protect people from fear of death.
https://psmag.com/social-justice/why-ath...-believers

Point taken. I get this issue. However, I don't think it's good to let someone maintain their delusions for their own comfort regardless of their fragility. Further, I feel it's dishonest to let someone continue to deny science. Someone's perceived need to believe is not more important than being honest with them.

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31-01-2018, 02:09 PM
RE: Conversations with a dying Creationist
(31-01-2018 09:47 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(30-01-2018 12:32 PM)grejen Wrote:  (though, oddly, he accepts that dogs have evolved from wolves)

Evolution and natural selection are not the same thing; in fact they are just the opposite.

The very name of the theory is "Darwin's Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection".


Quote:Darwin's Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection

More individuals are produced each generation that can survive.
Phenotypic variation exists among individuals and the variation is heritable.
Those individuals with heritable traits better suited to the environment will survive.
When reproductive isolation occurs new species will form.
These are the basic tenets of evolution by natural selection as defined by Darwin. The following is a quote from Darwin.
"Variation is a feature of natural populations and every population produces more progeny than its environment can manage. The consequences of this overproduction is that those individuals with the best genetic fitness for the environment will produce offspring that can more successfully compete in that environment. Thus the subsequent generation will have a higher representation of these offspring and the population will have evolved."

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01-02-2018, 08:33 AM
RE: Conversations with a dying Creationist
(31-01-2018 10:26 AM)unfogged Wrote:  They aren't opposites. Natural selection is the process that directs evolution. The derivation of dogs from wolves is an example of artificial selection which takes the tool of natural selection and applies it with intention.

Natural selection takes place when some characteristics are eliminated so that others can be emphasized. All of the genes found in all kinds of dogs exist in wolves. Each breed of dog retains only a small part of that genetic information. Evolution requires that organisms develop new information that isn't found in any of their ancestors. Natural selection is the opposite of evolution.

(31-01-2018 02:09 PM)BikerDude Wrote:  The very name of the theory is "Darwin's Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection".

In Darwin's time people didn't know as much about how heredity works as we do today. Gregor Mendel had performed the experiments on which that science is based but his work hadn't been widely published and Darwin probably knew nothing about it. A lot of people in Darwin's time, and perhaps Darwin himself, believed acquired characteritics could be inherited. With that level of knowledge it is understandable that natural selection and evolution could be seen as being the same thing. We have a lot more knowledge today; we have no excuse for making that mistake.

If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.
Charles Darwin
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