Cops Patiently Wait For Excuse To Execute Man
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09-12-2015, 07:53 PM
RE: Cops Patiently Wait For Excuse To Execute Man
(08-12-2015 10:14 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  C) Those who are defending these people killed by the police understand full-well that the police were issuing lawful orders and the people being shot in these videos could have put down the knives... they are not "total victims". I agree with much of what you say, but your use of unnecessary "not all" and "total victim" hyperbole implies that there are people who simply hate police and will totally deify anyone who is harmed by them. It is not a failure of understanding what's going on, on our part; we simply disagree that "Disobeying a Lawful Order of a Law Enforcement Officer" is a capital offense.

I think you're kidding yourself if you think there are people who do not just hate the police and will deify anyone who is killed by them.

As for your last statement, it's more than just disobeying a lawful order. That video shows about 6 seconds, but what do you think happened leading up to it? The cops showed up and told the guy to come out most likely. And, he comes out with a razor. You think they just said "hey, come on up to us and let's talk it out"?. I don't. I think they told him to drop the weapon and get on the ground. And, I suspect they told him to drop the razor and get down a bunch of times. And yet, he ends up almost next to one of the officers while holding a weapon. I don't know that's exactly what happened but I think it's a pretty good guess. So, you're a cop and this guy just keeps approaching and he's holding a weapon and getting increasingly closer to another office. What do you do? Do you wait and see what he's going to do?

There is no easy answer here. The cops don't have the right to shoot just because someone doesn't listen to them, but I think it's really hard to argue this guy didn't pose a threat. Someone who does what he did is not right in the head. Asking the police to risk their own safety and hope it all works out isn't fair or reasonable. Again, this is not a case where an unarmed guy who was pulled over for speeding and ran was shot in the back. This is the case of a guy who tried to rob a bank, ran into a shop, grabbed a straight razor, came out and apparently just kept walking towards them while holding the razor. Could they have tazed him? Maybe. But, the more I think this one through, the more on the fence on this one I become.

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When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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09-12-2015, 09:41 PM
RE: Cops Patiently Wait For Excuse To Execute Man
(09-12-2015 07:53 PM)BnW Wrote:  I think you're kidding yourself if you think there are people who do not just hate the police and will deify anyone who is killed by them.

Are there corrseponding people who will defend the police no matter what?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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10-12-2015, 04:08 AM
RE: Cops Patiently Wait For Excuse To Execute Man
(09-12-2015 07:53 PM)BnW Wrote:  
(08-12-2015 10:14 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  C) Those who are defending these people killed by the police understand full-well that the police were issuing lawful orders and the people being shot in these videos could have put down the knives... they are not "total victims". I agree with much of what you say, but your use of unnecessary "not all" and "total victim" hyperbole implies that there are people who simply hate police and will totally deify anyone who is harmed by them. It is not a failure of understanding what's going on, on our part; we simply disagree that "Disobeying a Lawful Order of a Law Enforcement Officer" is a capital offense.

I think you're kidding yourself if you think there are people who do not just hate the police and will deify anyone who is killed by them.

As for your last statement, it's more than just disobeying a lawful order. That video shows about 6 seconds, but what do you think happened leading up to it? The cops showed up and told the guy to come out most likely. And, he comes out with a razor. You think they just said "hey, come on up to us and let's talk it out"?. I don't. I think they told him to drop the weapon and get on the ground. And, I suspect they told him to drop the razor and get down a bunch of times. And yet, he ends up almost next to one of the officers while holding a weapon. I don't know that's exactly what happened but I think it's a pretty good guess. So, you're a cop and this guy just keeps approaching and he's holding a weapon and getting increasingly closer to another office. What do you do? Do you wait and see what he's going to do?

There is no easy answer here. The cops don't have the right to shoot just because someone doesn't listen to them, but I think it's really hard to argue this guy didn't pose a threat. Someone who does what he did is not right in the head. Asking the police to risk their own safety and hope it all works out isn't fair or reasonable. Again, this is not a case where an unarmed guy who was pulled over for speeding and ran was shot in the back. This is the case of a guy who tried to rob a bank, ran into a shop, grabbed a straight razor, came out and apparently just kept walking towards them while holding the razor. Could they have tazed him? Maybe. But, the more I think this one through, the more on the fence on this one I become.
Risking your own safety IS a part of the job being a cop. If you don`t want to risk your own safety don`t be a cop, be a fuckin clerk.
The threat that guy posed is really a minor one. Objectively none of the lives of the cops were in danger. At worst they might of get cut if the guy launched with unlikely speed at one of the cops. This threat is waaaaaaay below the threshold of "no other choice then to kill this guy" .
They could`ve moved back just containing him while maintaining the safe distance , or use an nonlethal shot to the shoulder, or use a taser as you said.

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10-12-2015, 05:03 AM (This post was last modified: 10-12-2015 05:07 AM by BnW.)
RE: Cops Patiently Wait For Excuse To Execute Man
(09-12-2015 09:41 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(09-12-2015 07:53 PM)BnW Wrote:  I think you're kidding yourself if you think there are people who do not just hate the police and will deify anyone who is killed by them.

Are there corrseponding people who will defend the police no matter what?

There are going to be people who defend one side or one group no matter what on any issue you can think of. There are absolutely people who defend the cops no matter what.

As for the argument the cops are supposed to take risks, I disagree. Being a cop is inherently risky but I seriously don't get this argument they are required to add to the risk. I also don't get this "non lethal shot" argument. I don't know much about police training but even I know they are taught to shoot for the body and make sure that, if they do have to fire their weapon, the suspect isn't getting back up. This isn't tv. You aim for a limb and you may miss. First, if you think you have to shoot you should, in theory, believe your life or someone else life is in imminent danger. Missing could be a problem. Second, they are out in public. You try to shoot the guy in the leg and miss, the bullet doesn't just stop. You could hit someone else.

I agree they should take before shooting and there have beena number of examples where I question why they didn't. I know tazers are not 100% effective but it should still be a first option in most instances.

Oh, and you can absolutely kill someone with a straight razor. Trying to wrestle one from someone is probably a good way for that to happen.

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10-12-2015, 05:19 AM
RE: Cops Patiently Wait For Excuse To Execute Man
(08-12-2015 01:02 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Don't rob banks... Don't brandish weapons.....

Don't be a fucking wanker -- and nobody will shoot you....

How hard is that to figure out????

I have to agree. Also, don't be black.

Angel

(08-12-2015 01:36 PM)yakherder Wrote:  ...
What I think happened was simply that when the taser was put to use the other officers, under the stress of the situation, misinterpreted both the advance of the razor guy and the intent of the other officers and opened fire.
...

That was my read of the situation.

Therefore ... conclusion ... insufficient and / or inappropriate training and / or trigger-happiness.

Dodgy

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10-12-2015, 05:23 AM (This post was last modified: 10-12-2015 05:30 AM by yakherder.)
RE: Cops Patiently Wait For Excuse To Execute Man
(10-12-2015 05:19 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(08-12-2015 01:02 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Don't rob banks... Don't brandish weapons.....

Don't be a fucking wanker -- and nobody will shoot you....

How hard is that to figure out????

I have to agree. Also, don't be black.

Angel

(08-12-2015 01:36 PM)yakherder Wrote:  ...
What I think happened was simply that when the taser was put to use the other officers, under the stress of the situation, misinterpreted both the advance of the razor guy and the intent of the other officers and opened fire.
...

That was my read of the situation.

Therefore ... conclusion ... insufficient and / or inappropriate training and / or trigger-happiness.

Dodgy

The fact that the overwhelming majority of cops go their entire trigger happy careers without ever actually pulling the trigger can be a disadvantage in that regards. Its difficult to simulate that kind of adrenal response in training. Not impossible. One of the best training sites to date was the one set up by Blackwater before they got into contracting. Many law enforcement professionals were paying out of their own pockets to go.

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10-12-2015, 05:33 AM
RE: Cops Patiently Wait For Excuse To Execute Man
(10-12-2015 05:03 AM)BnW Wrote:  
(09-12-2015 09:41 PM)morondog Wrote:  Are there corrseponding people who will defend the police no matter what?

There are going to be people who defend one side or one group no matter what on any issue you can think of. There are absolutely people who defend the cops no matter what.

As for the argument the cops are supposed to take risks, I disagree. Being a cop is inherently risky but I seriously don't get this argument they are required to add to the risk. I also don't get this "non lethal shot" argument. I don't know much about police training but even I know they are taught to shoot for the body and make sure that, if they do have to fire their weapon, the suspect isn't getting back up. This isn't tv. You aim for a limb and you may miss. First, if you think you have to shoot you should, in theory, believe your life or someone else life is in imminent danger. Missing could be a problem. Second, they are out in public. You try to shoot the guy in the leg and miss, the bullet doesn't just stop. You could hit someone else.

I agree they should take before shooting and there have beena number of examples where I question why they didn't. I know tazers are not 100% effective but it should still be a first option in most instances.

Oh, and you can absolutely kill someone with a straight razor. Trying to wrestle one from someone is probably a good way for that to happen.
If being a cop is inherently risky as you say , what do you mean by risky other then confronting criminals? They are not unnecessary adding to the risk, confronting criminals is exactly the risk they agree to take by being a cop.
The very danger to the cops comes from close proximity of this guy , and if you can`t hit a limb from that distance you have no business carrying a gun let alone be trusted to use it in the proper manner.

You can kill somebody with a pencil or even your bare hands, it is just very unlikely and thus lethal force should not be applied. Nobody suggests wrestling the guy as the best option.
All I am saying is that killing a suspect must be a last resort, when everything else fails, not a first go to solution for any kind of confrontation.

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10-12-2015, 07:04 AM
RE: Cops Patiently Wait For Excuse To Execute Man
Firearm training teaches you to shoot for center of the target mass. In stress situations you revert to training. Shooting an opponent's weapon out of their hand is a figment of movie maker's imagination. Shooting to wound is a figment of the untrained's imagination. It simply isn't done.

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10-12-2015, 07:22 AM
RE: Cops Patiently Wait For Excuse To Execute Man
(10-12-2015 07:04 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Firearm training teaches you to shoot for center of the target mass. In stress situations you revert to training. Shooting an opponent's weapon out of their hand is a figment of movie maker's imagination. Shooting to wound is a figment of the untrained's imagination. It simply isn't done.
Obviously , a big part of the problem comes from inappropriate and insufficient training.

Quote:Shooting an opponent's weapon out of their hand...

Did anybody suggest this or you just strawmaning for the fun of it?

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10-12-2015, 08:17 AM
RE: Cops Patiently Wait For Excuse To Execute Man
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/miami-beach/article48939060.html

Backgrounds on the perp and officers. The only one who had a clean record was the officer who fired. Confused

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