Cops Patiently Wait For Excuse To Execute Man
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10-12-2015, 09:31 AM
RE: Cops Patiently Wait For Excuse To Execute Man
(10-12-2015 05:33 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  All I am saying is that killing a suspect must be a last resort, when everything else fails, not a first go to solution for any kind of confrontation.

Completely agree with this. But, it's a straw man. No one is arguing it should be a first go solution. My only point has been I don't think this situation is as clear cut as some want to make it. People are arguing the cops were poorly trained, they could have shot him in the leg, and now implying that they couldn't wait to shoot him. Hell, just look at the title of this thread.

I see no evidence the cops were poorly trained and I the entirety of the story contradicts the notion shooting was the first option. This guy grabbed a razor, which is absolutely a weapon, and walked towards a bunch of cops who were pointing guns at him and most likely were screaming at him to drop the razor and get on the ground. And he still kept coming and got within a few feet of one officer. And you really think he didn't pose a real threat to them?

Maybe they had non lethal options but I don't agree they have to risk it and take the chance. I originally said the video doesn't look good for the cops but the more I think through it, the more I think they were not wrong.

That is not a justification for every shooting, obviously. Each event stands on its own and should be evaluated on the specific facts. Here. I see guy with a weapon ignoring the threat to his own life and walking towards the armed cops.

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10-12-2015, 10:23 AM
RE: Cops Patiently Wait For Excuse To Execute Man
(10-12-2015 08:17 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/co...39060.html

Backgrounds on the perp and officers. The only one who had a clean record was the officer who fired. Confused

Fixed. The entire url was not included within the url tag for some reason so the link in this post should fix it.

*http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/co...39060.html

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10-12-2015, 11:32 AM
RE: Cops Patiently Wait For Excuse To Execute Man
(10-12-2015 09:31 AM)BnW Wrote:  
(10-12-2015 05:33 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  All I am saying is that killing a suspect must be a last resort, when everything else fails, not a first go to solution for any kind of confrontation.

Completely agree with this. But, it's a straw man. No one is arguing it should be a first go solution. My only point has been I don't think this situation is as clear cut as some want to make it. People are arguing the cops were poorly trained, they could have shot him in the leg, and now implying that they couldn't wait to shoot him. Hell, just look at the title of this thread.

I see no evidence the cops were poorly trained and I the entirety of the story contradicts the notion shooting was the first option. This guy grabbed a razor, which is absolutely a weapon, and walked towards a bunch of cops who were pointing guns at him and most likely were screaming at him to drop the razor and get on the ground. And he still kept coming and got within a few feet of one officer. And you really think he didn't pose a real threat to them?

Maybe they had non lethal options but I don't agree they have to risk it and take the chance. I originally said the video doesn't look good for the cops but the more I think through it, the more I think they were not wrong.

That is not a justification for every shooting, obviously. Each event stands on its own and should be evaluated on the specific facts. Here. I see guy with a weapon ignoring the threat to his own life and walking towards the armed cops.

I know that nobody is arguing that shooting the suspect should be the first go to solution but this is what we are seeing more and more often (?) , cops shooting before they exhausted other possibilities or even attempting any other solutions.

I didn't mean to say that you or anybody else here is arguing that killing a suspect should be the first solution, what I meant is that it seems it is the first solution in the eyes of some cops, and I blame this on poor training.

Cops should be trained to understand the psychology of the perps , to understand the influence drugs or alcohol or mental illness have on people , how to approach and deal with them in , if possible, not violent way. How to defuse the situation. How to contain the suspect without putting themselves in harms way....and so on.

This should be the training they fall back to in stressful situations.
Not "put two in the center of the mass"

Quote:And you really think he didn't pose a real threat to them?
Yes I do, but people are different. I know that I wouldn't feel threatened by that guy if I was in the shoes of any of those cops.

Quote:Each event stands on its own and should be evaluated on the specific facts.

Maybe not, maybe they should be looked at together as a part of a bigger problem.

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10-12-2015, 06:10 PM
RE: Cops Patiently Wait For Excuse To Execute Man
(10-12-2015 07:22 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(10-12-2015 07:04 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Firearm training teaches you to shoot for center of the target mass. In stress situations you revert to training. Shooting an opponent's weapon out of their hand is a figment of movie maker's imagination. Shooting to wound is a figment of the untrained's imagination. It simply isn't done.
Obviously , a big part of the problem comes from inappropriate and insufficient training.

Quote:Shooting an opponent's weapon out of their hand...

Did anybody suggest this or you just strawmaning for the fun of it?

There's nothing "strawman" about it....

I've met ignorant people with no firearm training that believe such nonsense.

.....
Just like they believe "shoot to wound" bullshit.......

It's just not done........


For good reason ---

"If you had time to wound -- you weren't really in danger, were you"???? --- is what a prosecutor will say - if you were to try such a stupid thing..............

.......................................

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11-12-2015, 04:14 AM
RE: Cops Patiently Wait For Excuse To Execute Man
(10-12-2015 06:10 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(10-12-2015 07:22 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  Obviously , a big part of the problem comes from inappropriate and insufficient training.


Did anybody suggest this or you just strawmaning for the fun of it?

There's nothing "strawman" about it....

I've met ignorant people with no firearm training that believe such nonsense.

.....
Just like they believe "shoot to wound" bullshit.......

It's just not done........


For good reason ---

"If you had time to wound -- you weren't really in danger, were you"???? --- is what a prosecutor will say - if you were to try such a stupid thing..............


Speaking as a former hunter, I honestly think it also has a lot to do with how good a shot one is. A thigh for example is quite a large target.

I was a very good shot. One day I was charged by a wild boar. I shot it between the eyes at about a 10' distance. I believe I was about 12 or 13 years old. Maybe younger. I was using a 303 rifle from WWII.

The police here in Sydney shot an insane man on a beach and killed him. I think he was wielding a butter knife. It was quite a scandal at the time.

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11-12-2015, 05:08 AM
RE: Cops Patiently Wait For Excuse To Execute Man
(11-12-2015 04:14 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(10-12-2015 06:10 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  There's nothing "strawman" about it....

I've met ignorant people with no firearm training that believe such nonsense.

.....
Just like they believe "shoot to wound" bullshit.......

It's just not done........


For good reason ---

"If you had time to wound -- you weren't really in danger, were you"???? --- is what a prosecutor will say - if you were to try such a stupid thing..............


Speaking as a former hunter, I honestly think it also has a lot to do with how good a shot one is. A thigh for example is quite a large target.

I was a very good shot. One day I was charged by a wild boar. I shot it between the eyes at about a 10' distance. I believe I was about 12 or 13 years old. Maybe younger. I was using a 303 rifle from WWII.

The police here in Sydney shot an insane man on a beach and killed him. I think he was wielding a butter knife. It was quite a scandal at the time.

It has nothing to do with how good a shot an officer is or isn't.

It has to do with the repercussions of "shooting to wound".

It's NEVER done. The officers are NOT trained to do such a thing - and NEVER WILL BE.

The reason - as I stated before -- is if you have time to make the conscious decision to "shoot to wound" - (and probably maim) someone, they probably are not a threat to your life, so therefore you are not justified in shooting them.

A prosecutor WOULD use this argument. If you did "shoot to wound" - it's almost guaranteed that you would be in court being sued -- if not criminally prosecuted.

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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11-12-2015, 05:15 AM
RE: Cops Patiently Wait For Excuse To Execute Man
(11-12-2015 05:08 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  .

A prosecutor WOULD use this argument. If you did "shoot to wound" - it's almost guaranteed that you would be in court being sued -- if not criminally prosecuted.

Really? I had no idea.
Thanks mate. Smile

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I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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11-12-2015, 05:21 AM
RE: Cops Patiently Wait For Excuse To Execute Man
And part of the reason is that the end result is often still the same. I mentioned in another thread a guy getting shot in the femoral artery (thigh). He was dead in 30 seconds. Any shot should be considered potentially lethal, which makes shooting to wound irrational. It may happen by chance, and often does. Nonetheless, a shot at any part of the body is and should be considered lethal force.

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11-12-2015, 05:30 AM
RE: Cops Patiently Wait For Excuse To Execute Man
(11-12-2015 05:21 AM)yakherder Wrote:  And part of the reason is that the end result is often still the same. I mentioned in another thread a guy getting shot in the femoral artery (thigh). He was dead in 30 seconds. Any shot should be considered potentially lethal, which makes shooting to wound irrational. It may happen by chance, and often does. Nonetheless, a shot at any part of the body is and should be considered lethal force.

Yes I thought of the artery. Also I have never been a police officer. Never shot at a human being. So any thoughts I have on this matter are based in a certain amount of ignorance. Hunting kangaroos, pigs and rabbits is a bit different.
I am simply thinking out loud as they say.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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11-12-2015, 05:40 AM
RE: Cops Patiently Wait For Excuse To Execute Man
(11-12-2015 05:30 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(11-12-2015 05:21 AM)yakherder Wrote:  And part of the reason is that the end result is often still the same. I mentioned in another thread a guy getting shot in the femoral artery (thigh). He was dead in 30 seconds. Any shot should be considered potentially lethal, which makes shooting to wound irrational. It may happen by chance, and often does. Nonetheless, a shot at any part of the body is and should be considered lethal force.

Yes I thought of the artery. Also I have never been a police officer. Never shot at a human being. So any thoughts I have on this matter are based in a certain amount of ignorance. Hunting kangaroos, pigs and rabbits is a bit different.
I am simply thinking out loud as they say.

Hunting people isn't that much different. Perhaps easier, their senses suck compared to wild animals Tongue. It's the live capture aspect that makes it complicated Smile

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