Cops Patiently Wait For Excuse To Execute Man
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08-12-2015, 01:08 PM
RE: Cops Patiently Wait For Excuse To Execute Man
he uses "Citizen" like they do in Starship Troopers.
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08-12-2015, 01:11 PM
RE: Cops Patiently Wait For Excuse To Execute Man
(08-12-2015 01:04 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(08-12-2015 12:14 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  It's not about disobedience. It's about walking towards cops while armed with a damn razor and threatening to have a bomb in your pants. He didn't leave the cops much choice. They could have wrestled with him I suppose. But one or more would probably get slashed. He had every opportunity to put it down and lay on the ground. Cops have families too. They want to go home at the end of the day. In fact I would critique these officers for allowing him to get within 4 feet. He should have been taken down long before he got that close. Deadly force is authorized on a suspect holding an edged weapon that continues to advance and refuses orders to stop. Don't like it? Change the laws. Good luck finding cops then.
He wasn't advancing and there is more then 4 feet between him and the cops.
Really, if you think this is a justified shooting, you are insane.

(08-12-2015 12:51 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  Its about time. No more fucking around. Too many scum bags get to bully people and cops around. They expect cops and citizens to retreat and cower to their threat of violence. That time is over. Cops will shoot someone with a knife, just as any citizen would under similar circumstances. That's the beauty of rules of engagement and stand your ground laws. The bad guys have to think twice now.

People won't be victims anymore. Game over.

Any citizen would do the same?
I think the fear got the better of you and you are not thinking clearly.

You need to watch the video again. The cops stand in the same place the entire time. He starts out on the other side of the police car. He gets dropped when he's on the cops side of the car, right in front of the female cop, maybe 4 feet away. That's called "advancing."

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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08-12-2015, 01:29 PM
RE: Cops Patiently Wait For Excuse To Execute Man
(08-12-2015 01:11 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(08-12-2015 01:04 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  He wasn't advancing and there is more then 4 feet between him and the cops.
Really, if you think this is a justified shooting, you are insane.


Any citizen would do the same?
I think the fear got the better of you and you are not thinking clearly.

You need to watch the video again. The cops stand in the same place the entire time. He starts out on the other side of the police car. He gets dropped when he's on the cops side of the car, right in front of the female cop, maybe 4 feet away. That's called "advancing."
His "advance" around the car took one whole minute, then he stopped and put his hand on the car , in that moment he was shot. You are trying to present it as he was charging the police.
And the officer who shot him stand at the other end of the car, I believe that is more then 4 feet, more like 7 or 8 , and the female cop is standing on the line between lanes, probably 10 feet away from the guy, just looks closer because of the angle ( and because your brain is trying to justify the cops actions ) .

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08-12-2015, 01:30 PM
RE: Cops Patiently Wait For Excuse To Execute Man
Seeing as how the UK's tactics were compared to the american's we do have far less armed police than you guys and far, far less guns overall. So we have been forced to adapt and use other non lethal approaches.

I think you have the right to bear arms, but whilst you do the more you increase the amount of guns in circulation the more chances shit is going to happen, which means more training and stress for your police.

Just get rid of guns America. I know it will never happen in my lifetime as I understand you have the right to own one, however you don't need them.

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08-12-2015, 01:31 PM
RE: Cops Patiently Wait For Excuse To Execute Man
(08-12-2015 12:57 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(08-12-2015 11:21 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  Sorry, cops are not trained to give ground or run. They post up and contain the suspect. If they keep backing up as he approaches them it puts basserbys in danger. He had one choice only. Get down on the ground. The video starts with the suspect on one side of the cruiser and the police on the other. They don't move. He walks around the cruiser and approaches the female officer with a razor in his hand and a possible bomb in his pocket.

There are plenty of cases of police brutality and even murder. This isn't one of them.

(Bold emphasis my own.)

Sorry I'm late to this thread, but this was a WTF moment.

Are you seriously suggesting that, when a suspect is surrounded by police keeping their distance, that a man walking with a knife in hand is a danger to "passers-by"? Who's going to cross a ring of police to get next to that guy, where he can reach them? Why would the police possibly get closer than five meters (16') to a guy with a gun, when they have tasers, high-powered pepper-spray, and other non-lethal options that can reach that far easily?

Instead, the police in almost every video I have seen lately that involves the shooting death of the suspect occurs when police deliberately place themselves in "danger" by running to a position where they can make such a claim. A recent example is the 19-year-old kid whom the police shoot through his driver's side window as his tiny car tries to drive away from the scene; the officer runs sideways to try to place himself in front of the car and, failing that, shoots the kid, claiming the kid was trying to run him over, even though at no point was he in front of the car. Likewise, with every one of the videos I have seen on this subject, there was no actual danger to the police except that which they manufactured.

Most of the time, when you have a person waving a knife in the air in the presence of armed police, there is serious mental illness as the root cause of their actions. It's just not something mentally stable people tend to do, when faced with a wall of guns. Mentally unstable people react badly to escalating shouts, being surrounded, etc, and cannot be held to the standards of behavior you might claim for yourself or others who are as mentally stable as you are. Even the police organizations admit that the training for handling the mentally unstable is severely lacking in almost every police unit in the United States.

To suggest that the police are justified in shooting someone, simply because they are holding a knife, is beyond the pale. A troop of Boy Scouts, armed with Tasers, could easily have taken down every person in those videos without doing permanent harm, let alone executing them in broad daylight. The police clearly had no interest in trying to protect the life of that citizen, and were more concerned with manufacturing legal cover for the decision to execute.

Shame on them and shame on you for defending them.

This, 100 times this.

Was the perp an idiot? Yes
Should be have tried to rob a bank? Hell no.
Was he a danger to others wielding a razor? Yes
Was the situation contained when the police surrounded him? Yes
Was there time to implement other tactics to subdue the perp? Yes
Are the actions taken by the police a disproportionate response? Yes

It's not more complicated than that. Drinking Beverage

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08-12-2015, 01:36 PM (This post was last modified: 08-12-2015 01:54 PM by yakherder.)
RE: Cops Patiently Wait For Excuse To Execute Man
I'm not gonna go too much into my own opinion of the encounter because I am, in fact, a monster and have never claimed otherwise. That said, there are a lot of misconceptions on how use of force works, its effectiveness, etc.

First off, pepper spray is useless in a situation like this. I've got into that debate before on other threads. On a non combatant (i.e. peaceful protester, non compliant inmate, etc.,) it's quite effective at obtaining compliance. On a combatant, it's not only ineffective, but can be counter productive. In this case, I suspect a face full of pepper spray would have resulted in the guy with the blade experiencing an immediate adrenaline rush and charging someone, at which time he would have been shot in a much less controlled manner.

In regards to the taser: They typically work only in a relatively controlled environment, as they depend on being employed from a very specific range. Too close and the tongs don't spread far enough, too far and they hit too wide, in either case losing their ability to immobilize the threat. Dark Helmet, though I understand your reasoning behind the concern with using the taser on someone potentially carrying an explosive, I would assume that this was not their concern given that they did ultimately choose to deploy the taser. That concern aside, I think this was an ideal situation to use the taser. He was armed and slowly advancing, but not outwardly aggressive, and the range was ideal.

What I think happened was simply that when the taser was put to use the other officers, under the stress of the situation, misinterpreted both the advance of the razor guy and the intent of the other officers and opened fire. As for the razor guy, I'd venture to guess this is exactly what he wanted. This is pretty much how a typical "suicide by cop" encounter goes. In any case, based on the fact that it would have been dereliction of duty for them to retreat and with the advance of the guy with the razor, I believe they were within their defined rules of engagement. That's not to say it was an ideal outcome, or that there weren't other better theoretical options, but if there is a problem it lies within the system governing the conduct of such encounters, not within the actions of the individual officers. I'll leave that judgement to the discretion of Florida law, as my own training has been in other opposite ends of the spectrum in corrections, which is without firearms and in a more controlled environment, and in the handling of detainees in combat operations, in which context we open fire if they so much as flinch before we've had a chance to search them whether they're obviously armed or not.

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08-12-2015, 01:40 PM
RE: Cops Patiently Wait For Excuse To Execute Man
Not the posting of a monster ^
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08-12-2015, 01:42 PM (This post was last modified: 08-12-2015 01:46 PM by bemore.)
RE: Cops Patiently Wait For Excuse To Execute Man








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08-12-2015, 01:43 PM
RE: Cops Patiently Wait For Excuse To Execute Man
(08-12-2015 01:40 PM)skyking Wrote:  Not the posting of a monster ^

That's a whole different debate. I would argue that emotionally stable people don't make good cops or soldiers simply because their normal cognitive responses prevent them from being able to think clearly in such situations. I tend to act rationally and in accordance to my rules of engagement while under pressure precisely because I am a borderline psychopath.

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08-12-2015, 01:45 PM
RE: Cops Patiently Wait For Excuse To Execute Man
(08-12-2015 01:06 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  In every self defense class I've been through - they've stated the "danger zone" of a person with a knife is 21 feet.....

That is, if they're within that distance and advancing - you stand a chance of being stabbed even if you put a round or two into your attacker.......

If the guy was within 4 feet of the officer with a knife - I'd call the officer slow to react.....

That 21' figure is for the cop to have time to draw his weapon and fire in self-defense against a charging guy with a knife. It's the "Surprise Zone", if you prefer. Had the guy clearly been trying to attack the cops with his knife, I would have no issue with them dropping him in their own self-defense.

However, when the guns are already drawn and the subject is effectively contained, that rule is irrelevant. They should not have approached him, and should not have had more than one or two with guns out, covering the officers who were getting closer in order to deploy nonlethal rounds, or try to talk the guy down.

It's exactly that "he took a step toward us" and "no retreat" mentality that is killing people. It's a complete failure of empathy. And as I said, usually people with mental illnesses that mean they aren't rationally stepping toward officers as a prelude to sudden violence. A person committing a bad act or doing something stupid does not automatically mean the police can contrive to make their life forfeit on the spot. We give serial killers more respect than that before we execute them-- Due Process. Years of it.

Now, suddenly, Due Process means "whenever the officer can manufacture a situation in which he can claim to feel threatened"?

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