Copyright Infringement
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10-10-2013, 01:55 PM
RE: Copyright Infringement
(10-10-2013 12:39 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Open question.
My situation means I have 0 money for music, movies and games.
So the question, what if the person wasn't going to buy it in the first place?
Stealing is often seen as taking something from someone, but how can I take something they never had?

What I mean is that pirating is stealing money off the companies. You don't pay them, so they never receive your money for their goods.
So what you're stealing is your money (that sounds weird but hopefully you get what I'm saying).
BUT if you never would have given them your money in the first place how can I steal it off them?
It's not even like I'm stealing the product, it's a copy of the product. I use my bandwidth to download it, I use my mb's to store it on my computer, I download it off someone else's computer.
What I'm saying is, I'm not taking anything from the company, so how can it be stealing?

Think of it like if you watch a dvd with a friend. Your friend didn't pay for that dvd, is he stealing?

It's not stealing in the sense that you are physically taking something from anyone. It's stealing in the sense that when a person depends on revenue generated through the sale of their product, you taking it illegally ultimately effects their livelihood.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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10-10-2013, 01:56 PM
RE: Copyright Infringement
(10-10-2013 01:21 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  
(10-10-2013 10:30 AM)Escape Artist Wrote:  Lest you think I bowed out of the discussion (I didn't - just had to go and pick up my youngest offspring from after-school care and plus I needed more time to think this matter over), I'm back.

You asked, "So you're saying I shouldn't go to the library at all?" and here's my answer. A long-winded one, but here it is, and there are three main points I'd like to touch on, which are: reader habits, the valuation of books, and money:

Reader Habits
If every reader read each book more than once, I'd have no qualms with the library system.

I will say (just to get this out of the way) that I am by no means intimate with the behind-the-scenes workings of a library. I understand (simply by observation of a library I used to frequent) that libraries have books donated to them by individuals in the community as well as somehow get new books on their own (I don't know whether the government allocates a certain amount of funding for libraries to attain new hot-off-the-press books or whether they somehow have to get those funds on their own, but still - doubtless since you do work at a library, Grizzly, you are much more familiar with these things).

So back to reader's habits and how they affect my view on this issue. There are two schools of reader: one who reads a book, loves it to pieces, and thus will come back multiple times in their life and re-read it and those who, no matter how much they love and adore a book upon first reading, will never touch it again. It is those in the latter category that make me feel uncomfortable about the borrowing of books in any fashion. In fact, I am in the latter category.

Frequently, I will name Orwell's 1984 as my favorite book ever. But the thing is, I read it back in high school. Borrowed it from the library, loved the fuck out of it, got weird looks from my peers for actually enjoying a classic work, and then returned it and have never read it again. Never. Put aside for a second the fact that Orwell is dead and therefore not receiving any proceeds from that classic work (though I'm sure it's entirely possible that posterity is still profiting from his talent - I am not super-knowledgeable in this area either, as I'm not myself published yet and do not know the inner workings of the publishing world), this is a man whose work I deeply appreciated and still do and yet I never purchased the book. Several times I've seen it in the bookstore and wanted to purchase it to show my appreciation, even though I know I'd never read it again. That's just how I feel about it.

So yeah, it's folks like me that make me not too keen on any kind of borrowing of books. If you're the type of reader who reads favorite books many, many times over, then I see no problem with borrowing a book, loving it, then purchasing a copy of your own. So long as the author is shown appreciation for his work via a sale, it doesn't bother me. If you're still that kind of reader and happen to borrow a book that quite frankly sucks, then the author didn't deliver and therefore does not deserve your hard-earned money. If you'd bought the book the first time out, you would - I think - return it for a refund, so it's the same deal in my mind. Either way, the author didn't get paid because you didn't enjoy it. But if you did enjoy the book, and then do not go on to purchase it, that's where I have a problem.

The Valuation of Books
If books were sold according to the value their respective authors put on them, then they'd cost a fuck of a lot more than they do. From concept to the final editing pass, a novel of average length can take anywhere from a few months to a few years to bring to completion. There are mitigating factors at work, of course - the author's productivity level and whether or not writing is their full-time occupation, just to name a couple - but regardless, writing a book is anything but a walk in the park.

Yes, it is very enjoyable (some writers claim not to enjoy the process but this one does, very much so) but it is also a lot of work. There is research involved, there is the feeding of your imagination so that you'll have a well of inspiration to pull from, there is the sheer amount of time involved, there is the purchase of a computer and software (or equivalent writing equipment, if you prefer to write longhand) but the point is that, if one were to put that much time and effort into any "regular" job, how much would they expect to be paid? More than $7.99 (what seems to me to be the average cost of an e-book these days), I guarantee it. So, if an author were to, say, value the sum of their efforts at a price of - just to be crazy here - $5,000 and sold just one copy, there'd be no problem. He's gotten out of it what he feels it was worth, and so subsequent copies could be free of charge.

But the author of a work is going to be inherently biased toward his creation and therefore he cannot, imo, objectively valuate it. This is the audience's job, and while the writer IS the first to view his work, the first audience, the "alpha" reader, it is still his baby, and therefore he will deem it worth very much more than probably anyone else would. Pertinent questions as to how much a work is worth seem to me to be:

Does it entertain?
Does the artist, as my username hints at, provide an escape for his reader?
Does the work shed light on some aspect of the human condition?
In short, does it deliver?


Only the audience can determine this. If it's of high value, it will - in the best possible scenario - sell lots of copies and thus reward the author justly. In a more unfortunate scenario, someone will purchase the book, love it to pieces and let everyone and their dog borrow it and worse yet, none of that person's friends will be inclined to read a book more than once, no matter how much they love it.

In the latter scenario, the author loses out. The audience deemed his work worthy enough to spread to others like wildfire, but not worthy enough to reward his efforts monetarily. I don't know why this is. Clearly people have a need to be entertained. Once our basic needs are met and we are not concerning ourselves with food and shelter, other desires and needs come into play. Authors, filmmakers, and the like are very much willing and able to provide for these needs, but yes, they would ideally like to be compensated for them (usually so they can pursue these things exclusively, rather than do them only in whatever spare time they have after working a full-time job) and it seems to me that many a consumer is not willing to pay for it.

Is it that the arts are deemed less worthy? Are not deemed as work at all? If the latter is your (in a general sense of the word "you") stance, I challenge you to look at any "making of" section on a DVD and see just how much goes into that 1 1/2 hour film. If the former is how you feel, that these people are just "making money playing pretend" and you find that unworthy of your money, then by all means, pen your own novel, or make your own movie. Don't dismiss the hard work of the many, many people it takes to get a film into the theaters or a book onto the shelves and just steal it.

Money
It seems to me that money is also of importance.

I think we've all thought, at one time or another, "Don't they have enough money?" and "Couldn't they just give it away at this point? They've made their millions." I know I have, but the question is, at what point has the author (or filmmaker, or whoever it may be) been sufficiently compensated for his labors? Should we say that once he has earned X number of dollars that any further enjoyment of this particular work of his should be free of charge? A cap of sorts on how much one can gain from any particular creation? Who would determine such a thing?

I actually do like the idea of there being a limit as to how much could be earned on any one particular work. I don't know how it would be kept track of, but let's say, after X number of sales or X amount of dollars earned, a book would be free to the public. No publisher would print a book for free, that much is obvious (it costs money to print them and they'd have to recoup those expenses) but maybe e-books could be downloaded freely. That would probably piss off the folks who spent money on the books, which is another can of worms, but still. The nebulous idea of there being a cap does seem fair.

...

Anyway, those are the three main things that came to my mind this morning as I thought more about the whole thing. The parts that seem, at least for me, important in reaching a decision as to what's right and what's not in regards to obtaining music, literature, or movies for free.

For now, as I'm not entirely settled on where I stand in regards to this issue, I tend to err on the side of caution: if I want a book (or movie or album), I'll do my best to purchase it brand-new (not used), and if I can't afford to buy it brand-new, then it's just a matter of how badly I want the book as to whether I'd borrow it from the library or get a used copy from Hastings or similar stores; ideally, if I could not buy the book brand-new and therefore contribute to the author's income by doing so, I'd just hold off on buying it; in reality, this does not always happen. I am, alas, not perfect.

Feel free to pick apart my "arguments" as I know logical thinking and reasoning are hardly my strong suit and I'm almost certain that someone will find my way of thinking about this highly laughable. But I am actually having fun mulling all this stuff over. It's one of those things I've thought about in passing many a time, but never got back around to really hashing out and it's something I've always meant to get back to.

Consider Perhaps the most shocking thing to come out of this thread is that yes, Danielle (aka Escape Artist, EA, "that chick that's always cracking pervy jokes or talking about her inner kink-beast") does think about more than just sex. Not much more, mind you, but more nonetheless. Tongue

Okay..umm what? at that last line. I don't think that.
By all means, buy the books you want. I have plenty, too much infact that I have no room left. Borrowing from a library isn't stealing you do have to return it. And yes we do get donations and we also have deals with publishers and also we have a book buyer. I myself don't know all the inner workings of the library, just a lowly page (keep the whole place organized and make sure everything is placed properly when we get returns. Fuck the whole place would fall if it wasn't for us.) I will get back to you on all the finance issues later. Most libraries do give a small amount when a book is checked out. For your sake I hope you don't want to see libraries end, damn I would go ballisticTongue
Since you asked I am the type that reads a book, loves it then puts it back on the shelf. Why? Fuck, I only need to read it once its how my mind works. Same thing with movies. The book is still there I remember it and the impressions I got from it. But that is to say only most of the time, I do purchase books but not lately since as I said I have no space left and have trouble parting with books. So sad;(
Most of my books are largely reference material or books for study like animation, storyboarding, children book writing, figure drawing, anatomy, all that stuff that needs to be referred back to. I even have novels as well which I never actually read more than once. As I said its just how my mind works I know that book. Thats just my case. I don't know what other people do or their reasons just to borrow a book and never buy. Do I think that artists/author are underpaid? Yes of course, but how can you put a value on something like that? Think were on agreement there. Its a mistake to think that all are motivated by money.
Have you seen the making of Paranorman? That was incredibly complex and fucking oscar worthy, but of course Brave took that one. Its pixar, happens. I understand the complexity of how an animated stop motion movie is made since I took part in making a few of my own. Awe inspired and absolutely nerve wrecking. Who the hell thinks its just playing pretend? I hate for you to assume that I don't appreciate the worksTongue
In closing people are not obligated to purchase books, they will if they want to and sometimes libraries are a gateway to that.

As far as my last line goes, it was more or less a joke. It seems most of my posts or comments have something to do with sex - either me whining about not getting enough or some such other complaint or else me making a sexual joke. Given your comment, maybe it's not as bad as I think... Tongue

I didn't mean to equate borrowing a book from the library with stealing as I do not view it the same way I would as someone shoplifting a book from a bookstore. I only meant to say that in some ways it seems it might be detrimental to the author.

Of course writers aren't only motivated by money. Some just want to see their name out there, want their book to get to the bigger audience that publishers can usually provide, but unless you're prepared to research each and every author to try and find out what their true motivations are, I still find that I like to err on the side of caution and pay for their books when I can. That's just what feels right to me. No one is obligated to follow my lead or agree with my opinion. I just wanted to let y'all know where I personally fall on this issue.

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10-10-2013, 02:01 PM
RE: Copyright Infringement
(10-10-2013 01:56 PM)Escape Artist Wrote:  
(10-10-2013 01:21 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  Okay..umm what? at that last line. I don't think that.
By all means, buy the books you want. I have plenty, too much infact that I have no room left. Borrowing from a library isn't stealing you do have to return it. And yes we do get donations and we also have deals with publishers and also we have a book buyer. I myself don't know all the inner workings of the library, just a lowly page (keep the whole place organized and make sure everything is placed properly when we get returns. Fuck the whole place would fall if it wasn't for us.) I will get back to you on all the finance issues later. Most libraries do give a small amount when a book is checked out. For your sake I hope you don't want to see libraries end, damn I would go ballisticTongue
Since you asked I am the type that reads a book, loves it then puts it back on the shelf. Why? Fuck, I only need to read it once its how my mind works. Same thing with movies. The book is still there I remember it and the impressions I got from it. But that is to say only most of the time, I do purchase books but not lately since as I said I have no space left and have trouble parting with books. So sad;(
Most of my books are largely reference material or books for study like animation, storyboarding, children book writing, figure drawing, anatomy, all that stuff that needs to be referred back to. I even have novels as well which I never actually read more than once. As I said its just how my mind works I know that book. Thats just my case. I don't know what other people do or their reasons just to borrow a book and never buy. Do I think that artists/author are underpaid? Yes of course, but how can you put a value on something like that? Think were on agreement there. Its a mistake to think that all are motivated by money.
Have you seen the making of Paranorman? That was incredibly complex and fucking oscar worthy, but of course Brave took that one. Its pixar, happens. I understand the complexity of how an animated stop motion movie is made since I took part in making a few of my own. Awe inspired and absolutely nerve wrecking. Who the hell thinks its just playing pretend? I hate for you to assume that I don't appreciate the worksTongue
In closing people are not obligated to purchase books, they will if they want to and sometimes libraries are a gateway to that.

As far as my last line goes, it was more or less a joke. It seems most of my posts or comments have something to do with sex - either me whining about not getting enough or some such other complaint or else me making a sexual joke. Given your comment, maybe it's not as bad as I think... Tongue

I didn't mean to equate borrowing a book from the library with stealing as I do not view it the same way I would as someone shoplifting a book from a bookstore. I only meant to say that in some ways it seems it might be detrimental to the author.

Of course writers aren't only motivated by money. Some just want to see their name out there, want their book to get to the bigger audience that publishers can usually provide, but unless you're prepared to research each and every author to try and find out what their true motivations are, I still find that I like to err on the side of caution and pay for their books when I can. That's just what feels right to me. No one is obligated to follow my lead or agree with my opinion. I just wanted to let y'all know where I personally fall on this issue.
Yeah I got yah, and we actually do have a book on the motivations of various authors. Fascinating actually. Why We Write: 20 Acclaimed Authors on How and Why They Do What They Do
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10-10-2013, 02:06 PM
RE: Copyright Infringement
(10-10-2013 01:55 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(10-10-2013 12:39 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Open question.
My situation means I have 0 money for music, movies and games.
So the question, what if the person wasn't going to buy it in the first place?
Stealing is often seen as taking something from someone, but how can I take something they never had?

What I mean is that pirating is stealing money off the companies. You don't pay them, so they never receive your money for their goods.
So what you're stealing is your money (that sounds weird but hopefully you get what I'm saying).
BUT if you never would have given them your money in the first place how can I steal it off them?
It's not even like I'm stealing the product, it's a copy of the product. I use my bandwidth to download it, I use my mb's to store it on my computer, I download it off someone else's computer.
What I'm saying is, I'm not taking anything from the company, so how can it be stealing?

Think of it like if you watch a dvd with a friend. Your friend didn't pay for that dvd, is he stealing?

It's not stealing in the sense that you are physically taking something from anyone. It's stealing in the sense that when a person depends on revenue generated through the sale of their product, you taking it illegally ultimately effects their livelihood.


In what way??
They wouldn't have gotten my money anyway.

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10-10-2013, 02:26 PM
RE: Copyright Infringement
(10-10-2013 02:06 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(10-10-2013 01:55 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  It's not stealing in the sense that you are physically taking something from anyone. It's stealing in the sense that when a person depends on revenue generated through the sale of their product, you taking it illegally ultimately effects their livelihood.


In what way??
They wouldn't have gotten my money anyway.

It's called tragedy of the commons.

It's why any non-physical goods still ought to have sales numbers (supposing they are on sale as a means of generating livelihoods) greater than one.

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10-10-2013, 02:32 PM
RE: Copyright Infringement
(10-10-2013 02:01 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  
(10-10-2013 01:56 PM)Escape Artist Wrote:  As far as my last line goes, it was more or less a joke. It seems most of my posts or comments have something to do with sex - either me whining about not getting enough or some such other complaint or else me making a sexual joke. Given your comment, maybe it's not as bad as I think... Tongue

I didn't mean to equate borrowing a book from the library with stealing as I do not view it the same way I would as someone shoplifting a book from a bookstore. I only meant to say that in some ways it seems it might be detrimental to the author.

Of course writers aren't only motivated by money. Some just want to see their name out there, want their book to get to the bigger audience that publishers can usually provide, but unless you're prepared to research each and every author to try and find out what their true motivations are, I still find that I like to err on the side of caution and pay for their books when I can. That's just what feels right to me. No one is obligated to follow my lead or agree with my opinion. I just wanted to let y'all know where I personally fall on this issue.
Yeah I got yah, and we actually do have a book on the motivations of various authors. Fascinating actually. Why We Write: 20 Acclaimed Authors on How and Why They Do What They Do

Ooooo - that book does sound interesting. I'll have to check it out. Thumbsup

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10-10-2013, 02:33 PM
RE: Copyright Infringement
(10-10-2013 02:06 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(10-10-2013 01:55 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  It's not stealing in the sense that you are physically taking something from anyone. It's stealing in the sense that when a person depends on revenue generated through the sale of their product, you taking it illegally ultimately effects their livelihood.


In what way??
They wouldn't have gotten my money anyway.

Just you yourself doing it? Not a big deal. When millions of people do it, regardless of whether or not they have money, it becomes a bigger deal.

If I take a couple of giant sequoia pine cones from Yosemite, it's not gonna effect anything. If every visitor to the park takes a couple every time they go, it's gonna cause a problem.

It's simply unethical.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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10-10-2013, 02:50 PM
RE: Copyright Infringement
(10-10-2013 02:33 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(10-10-2013 02:06 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  In what way??
They wouldn't have gotten my money anyway.

Just you yourself doing it? Not a big deal. When millions of people do it, regardless of whether or not they have money, it becomes a bigger deal.

If I take a couple of giant sequoia pine cones from Yosemite, it's not gonna effect anything. If every visitor to the park takes a couple every time they go, it's gonna cause a problem.

It's simply unethical.

Except the pine cones you took are no longer in the park...
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10-10-2013, 03:11 PM
RE: Copyright Infringement
(10-10-2013 02:06 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(10-10-2013 01:55 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  It's not stealing in the sense that you are physically taking something from anyone. It's stealing in the sense that when a person depends on revenue generated through the sale of their product, you taking it illegally ultimately effects their livelihood.


In what way??
They wouldn't have gotten my money anyway.

I already made this argument a page or two ago. It still seems legit... but it would require a method of download that doesn't allow for upload. Torrents require you to have at least SOME upload connectivity, which might be going to someone who would otherwise pay for the song/movie/game, whatever.
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10-10-2013, 03:33 PM
RE: Copyright Infringement
(10-10-2013 02:50 PM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  
(10-10-2013 02:33 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Just you yourself doing it? Not a big deal. When millions of people do it, regardless of whether or not they have money, it becomes a bigger deal.

If I take a couple of giant sequoia pine cones from Yosemite, it's not gonna effect anything. If every visitor to the park takes a couple every time they go, it's gonna cause a problem.

It's simply unethical.

Except the pine cones you took are no longer in the park...

Okay, the analogy wasn't perfect, but you get the point. Drinking Beverage
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