Copyright Infringement
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09-10-2013, 11:25 AM
RE: Copyright Infringement
(09-10-2013 10:47 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(08-10-2013 06:23 PM)Chas Wrote:  What part of 'theft' don't y'all understand? Consider

As an (occasional paid) musician, these practices are offensive and nothing else but theft.
No one is above the law, no matter what contortions they employ to self-justify it.
Feelling you're an entitled (adolescent) is no justification for theft.

So you acknowledge your bias, then you proceed to make an absolute moral judgement sprinkled with ad hominems. seriously?

Theft, at least for me, is justified in a myriad of circumstances, mainly when necessity is an element.
Oh, but we don't need to watch Lost or GOT for survival!... ok, then don't complain if people are too stupid to understand your arguments against god, or if they're too stupid to realize they have to spell correctly to be understood.

Culture is not a privilege for the rich, or at least it shouldn't be. The "piracy is theft" is a limping high horse.

"oh, but lets all share things for free is false too!" yes, of course! there are no easy solutions, but sentencing "nobody is above the law" and calling it a reasonable stance is useless, akin to "you need to have faith to know god".

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09-10-2013, 11:29 AM
RE: Copyright Infringement
(09-10-2013 11:25 AM)nach_in Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 10:47 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  As an (occasional paid) musician, these practices are offensive and nothing else but theft.
No one is above the law, no matter what contortions they employ to self-justify it.
Feelling you're an entitled (adolescent) is no justification for theft.

So you acknowledge your bias, then you proceed to make an absolute moral judgement sprinkled with ad hominems. seriously?

Theft, at least for me, is justified in a myriad of circumstances, mainly when necessity is an element.
Oh, but we don't need to watch Lost or GOT for survival!... ok, then don't complain if people are too stupid to understand your arguments against god, or if they're too stupid to realize they have to spell correctly to be understood.

Culture is not a privilege for the rich, or at least it shouldn't be. The "piracy is theft" is a limping high horse.

"oh, but lets all share things for free is false too!" yes, of course! there are no easy solutions, but sentencing "nobody is above the law" and calling it a reasonable stance is useless, akin to "you need to have faith to know god".

So we just turn our heads and refuse to acknowledge the people who are affected by theft?

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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09-10-2013, 11:40 AM
RE: Copyright Infringement
(09-10-2013 11:25 AM)nach_in Wrote:  Theft, at least for me, is justified in a myriad of circumstances, mainly when necessity is an element.
Oh, but we don't need to watch Lost or GOT for survival!... ok, then don't complain if people are too stupid to understand your arguments against god, or if they're too stupid to realize they have to spell correctly to be understood.

Culture is not a privilege for the rich, or at least it shouldn't be. The "piracy is theft" is a limping high horse.

"oh, but lets all share things for free is false too!" yes, of course! there are no easy solutions, but sentencing "nobody is above the law" and calling it a reasonable stance is useless, akin to "you need to have faith to know god".

Yes, which is fine so far as the ideal goes, but is not reflective of the reality. The assumption as regards present models of compensation is that the law will be upheld. Tongue

It would perhaps be worth differentiating between the two topics here. One is what should be; the other is how to deal with what is.

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09-10-2013, 11:41 AM
RE: Copyright Infringement
(09-10-2013 11:29 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 11:25 AM)nach_in Wrote:  So you acknowledge your bias, then you proceed to make an absolute moral judgement sprinkled with ad hominems. seriously?

Theft, at least for me, is justified in a myriad of circumstances, mainly when necessity is an element.
Oh, but we don't need to watch Lost or GOT for survival!... ok, then don't complain if people are too stupid to understand your arguments against god, or if they're too stupid to realize they have to spell correctly to be understood.

Culture is not a privilege for the rich, or at least it shouldn't be. The "piracy is theft" is a limping high horse.

"oh, but lets all share things for free is false too!" yes, of course! there are no easy solutions, but sentencing "nobody is above the law" and calling it a reasonable stance is useless, akin to "you need to have faith to know god".

So we just turn our heads and refuse to acknowledge the people who are affected by theft?

I'll quote myself:
Quote:"oh, but lets all share things for free is false too!" yes, of course! there are no easy solutions

We must find a way to make a profit while people have access. In the mean time we keep our faulty system, because it kind of works for now. But we shouldn't condemn so strictly.

And if copyright infringement is theft, then abortion is murder.
You may think there's not difference, but they are as different as a table and the idea of the same table.

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09-10-2013, 11:42 AM
RE: Copyright Infringement
(09-10-2013 11:25 AM)nach_in Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 10:47 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  As an (occasional paid) musician, these practices are offensive and nothing else but theft.
No one is above the law, no matter what contortions they employ to self-justify it.
Feelling you're an entitled (adolescent) is no justification for theft.

So you acknowledge your bias, then you proceed to make an absolute moral judgement sprinkled with ad hominems. seriously?

Theft, at least for me, is justified in a myriad of circumstances, mainly when necessity is an element.
Oh, but we don't need to watch Lost or GOT for survival!... ok, then don't complain if people are too stupid to understand your arguments against god, or if they're too stupid to realize they have to spell correctly to be understood.

Culture is not a privilege for the rich, or at least it shouldn't be. The "piracy is theft" is a limping high horse.

"oh, but lets all share things for free is false too!" yes, of course! there are no easy solutions, but sentencing "nobody is above the law" and calling it a reasonable stance is useless, akin to "you need to have faith to know god".

This is not the first time you have tried to muddy the waters by confabulating a right to cultural or scientific information with theft of intellectual property.

No one needs to infringe copyright - this is not a starving man stealing bread to feed his family. That's just another muddying of the waters.

I have no sympathy for artists or companies that make their works available for download and then complain about theft. They are naive.
But I have no sympathy for those who actively subvert a protection scheme to steal those works.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-10-2013, 11:46 AM
RE: Copyright Infringement
(09-10-2013 11:40 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 11:25 AM)nach_in Wrote:  Theft, at least for me, is justified in a myriad of circumstances, mainly when necessity is an element.
Oh, but we don't need to watch Lost or GOT for survival!... ok, then don't complain if people are too stupid to understand your arguments against god, or if they're too stupid to realize they have to spell correctly to be understood.

Culture is not a privilege for the rich, or at least it shouldn't be. The "piracy is theft" is a limping high horse.

"oh, but lets all share things for free is false too!" yes, of course! there are no easy solutions, but sentencing "nobody is above the law" and calling it a reasonable stance is useless, akin to "you need to have faith to know god".

Yes, which is fine so far as the ideal goes, but is not reflective of the reality. The assumption as regards present models of compensation is that the law will be upheld. Tongue

It would perhaps be worth differentiating between the two topics here. One is what should be; the other is how to deal with what is.

Fair point, but we're discussing the law, it's always about what it should be, by definition

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09-10-2013, 11:50 AM
RE: Copyright Infringement
(09-10-2013 11:42 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 11:25 AM)nach_in Wrote:  So you acknowledge your bias, then you proceed to make an absolute moral judgement sprinkled with ad hominems. seriously?

Theft, at least for me, is justified in a myriad of circumstances, mainly when necessity is an element.
Oh, but we don't need to watch Lost or GOT for survival!... ok, then don't complain if people are too stupid to understand your arguments against god, or if they're too stupid to realize they have to spell correctly to be understood.

Culture is not a privilege for the rich, or at least it shouldn't be. The "piracy is theft" is a limping high horse.

"oh, but lets all share things for free is false too!" yes, of course! there are no easy solutions, but sentencing "nobody is above the law" and calling it a reasonable stance is useless, akin to "you need to have faith to know god".

This is not the first time you have tried to muddy the waters by confabulating a right to cultural or scientific information with theft of intellectual property.

No one needs to infringe copyright - this is not a starving man stealing bread to feed his family. That's just another muddying of the waters.

I have no sympathy for artists or companies that make their works available for download and then complain about theft. They are naive.
But I have no sympathy for those who actively subvert a protection scheme to steal those works.

I don't muddy the water, the waters are already muddy. I'm also not asking for sympathy for any side, but enmity is not useful either.

Btw chas, please stop implying you know my intentions or accusing me of being dishonest.

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09-10-2013, 11:56 AM
RE: Copyright Infringement
(09-10-2013 11:50 AM)nach_in Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 11:42 AM)Chas Wrote:  This is not the first time you have tried to muddy the waters by confabulating a right to cultural or scientific information with theft of intellectual property.

No one needs to infringe copyright - this is not a starving man stealing bread to feed his family. That's just another muddying of the waters.

I have no sympathy for artists or companies that make their works available for download and then complain about theft. They are naive.
But I have no sympathy for those who actively subvert a protection scheme to steal those works.

I don't muddy the water, the waters are already muddy. I'm also not asking for sympathy for any side, but enmity is not useful either.

Btw chas, please stop implying you know my intentions or accusing me of being dishonest.

You are muddying the waters by trying to tie these two different concepts together.

I don't know your intent; I have been asking you why you have brought in this 'right to cultural and scientific...' which is not particularly related.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-10-2013, 12:02 PM
RE: Copyright Infringement
(09-10-2013 11:41 AM)nach_in Wrote:  We must find a way to make a profit while people have access. In the mean time we keep our faulty system, because it kind of works for now. But we shouldn't condemn so strictly.

Well yeah. But if we are going to be completely honest about the idea of theft, we should condemn it as strictly. And we should have this conversation as a means to adjust our faulty system to be more fair to the artists. I'm not condemning people, I'm condemning the dishonest justification of theft as part of this conversation.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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09-10-2013, 12:05 PM
RE: Copyright Infringement
(09-10-2013 11:56 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 11:50 AM)nach_in Wrote:  I don't muddy the water, the waters are already muddy. I'm also not asking for sympathy for any side, but enmity is not useful either.

Btw chas, please stop implying you know my intentions or accusing me of being dishonest.

You are muddying the waters by trying to tie these two different concepts together.

I don't know your intent; I have been asking you why you have brought in this 'right to cultural and scientific...' which is not particularly related.

International covenant on economic, social and cultural rights:
Quote:Article 15

1. The States Parties to the present Covenant recognize the right of everyone:

(a) To take part in cultural life;

(b) To enjoy the benefits of scientific progress and its applications;

© To benefit from the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.

2. The steps to be taken by the States Parties to the present Covenant to achieve the full realization of this right shall include those necessary for the conservation, the development and the diffusion of science and culture.
3. The States Parties to the present Covenant undertake to respect the freedom indispensable for scientific research and creative activity.

4. The States Parties to the present Covenant recognize the benefits to be derived from the encouragement and development of international contacts and co-operation in the scientific and cultural fields.


I tie them because they are tied, they are in the very same article!

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