Copyright Infringement
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09-10-2013, 12:11 PM
RE: Copyright Infringement
(09-10-2013 12:05 PM)nach_in Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 11:56 AM)Chas Wrote:  You are muddying the waters by trying to tie these two different concepts together.

I don't know your intent; I have been asking you why you have brought in this 'right to cultural and scientific...' which is not particularly related.

International covenant on economic, social and cultural rights:
Quote:Article 15

1. The States Parties to the present Covenant recognize the right of everyone:

(a) To take part in cultural life;

(b) To enjoy the benefits of scientific progress and its applications;

© To benefit from the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.

2. The steps to be taken by the States Parties to the present Covenant to achieve the full realization of this right shall include those necessary for the conservation, the development and the diffusion of science and culture.
3. The States Parties to the present Covenant undertake to respect the freedom indispensable for scientific research and creative activity.

4. The States Parties to the present Covenant recognize the benefits to be derived from the encouragement and development of international contacts and co-operation in the scientific and cultural fields.


I tie them because they are tied, they are in the very same article!

We argued this previously. You apparently interpret that to deny the existence of artistic or intellectual property rights; I deny that that is its intent.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-10-2013, 12:15 PM
RE: Copyright Infringement
(09-10-2013 12:11 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 12:05 PM)nach_in Wrote:  International covenant on economic, social and cultural rights:


I tie them because they are tied, they are in the very same article!

We argued this previously. You apparently interpret that to deny the existence of artistic or intellectual property rights; I deny that that is its intent.

I never denied the existence of intellectual property rights. I deny the fairness of the current legislation on IP.

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09-10-2013, 12:26 PM
RE: Copyright Infringement
I wish people would stop calling copyright infringement theft. Theft is taking something without permission, depriving the owner of it in the process. When you download music you aren't depriving anyone of the item, you are making a replica. The original remains intact. It's copyright infringement. Copyright infringement is reproducing something without the right-holder's permission. It is a very different issue.

If something can be destroyed by the truth, it might be worth destroying.

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09-10-2013, 12:29 PM
RE: Copyright Infringement
(09-10-2013 12:26 PM)Elesjei Wrote:  I wish people would stop calling copyright infringement theft. Theft is taking something without permission, depriving the owner of it in the process. When you download music you aren't depriving anyone of the item, you are making a replica. The original remains intact. It's copyright infringement. Copyright infringement is reproducing something without the right-holder's permission. It is a very different issue.

It is not very different at all. You are stealing the fruits of their labor, depriving them of income.

It is the same as stiffing an employee of wages earned.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-10-2013, 12:38 PM
RE: Copyright Infringement
(09-10-2013 12:26 PM)Elesjei Wrote:  I wish people would stop calling copyright infringement theft. Theft is taking something without permission, depriving the owner of it in the process. When you download music you aren't depriving anyone of the item, you are making a replica. The original remains intact. It's copyright infringement. Copyright infringement is reproducing something without the right-holder's permission. It is a very different issue.

It really isn't though. In an age where an artists work can be copied and shared so easily, it is that much easier for them to never see a dime of appreciation for what they do. Ought vs is in another light.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

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09-10-2013, 12:54 PM (This post was last modified: 09-10-2013 01:01 PM by Elesjei.)
RE: Copyright Infringement
What copyright infringement does is potentially reduce the amount of profit one can earn from a product. No one loses anything but projected profit.

It isn't 'stiffing an employee of wages' because an employee agrees to work X amount of hours for X amount of dollars.

With copyright infringement, there is no agreement to work for a certain number of hours and sell a certain number of units. It is a deal of "make this widget with an arbitrary value, and then sell as many as you can, and we'll see how much you make".

The only comparison with theft is that at the end, the right-holder has less money than he would have had the theft/infringement not occurred.

:edit: - and that someone has something that they didn't pay for

If something can be destroyed by the truth, it might be worth destroying.

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09-10-2013, 01:05 PM
RE: Copyright Infringement
(09-10-2013 12:38 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 12:26 PM)Elesjei Wrote:  I wish people would stop calling copyright infringement theft. Theft is taking something without permission, depriving the owner of it in the process. When you download music you aren't depriving anyone of the item, you are making a replica. The original remains intact. It's copyright infringement. Copyright infringement is reproducing something without the right-holder's permission. It is a very different issue.

It really isn't though. In an age where an artists work can be copied and shared so easily, it is that much easier for them to never see a dime of appreciation for what they do. Ought vs is in another light.

Absurd. "It's easy to steal this, so I will."

If those are your ethics, we will never be doing business.

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09-10-2013, 01:18 PM
RE: Copyright Infringement
(09-10-2013 04:31 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 03:33 AM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  Yes... Because its improbable? Yup. But if it happened I couldn't call it immoral... And if you then conveyed with 100% accuracy the movie to someone else, would that be immoral? How about swapping the brains in this scenario for computers? Why is it suddenly immoral?

Let's try to stay in the real world, shall we?

I'm sorry, I was drinking heavily last night. Sometimes I forget that computers don't exist.
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09-10-2013, 01:21 PM
RE: Copyright Infringement
(09-10-2013 10:40 AM)ELK12695 Wrote:  Ferdy, can you give a number of how many Mb or Gb's for that matter of music you download in a month, cause the biggest audio download I ever took in was Megadeth's Warchest that was about 600 Mb, and that collection is like 4-5 CD's. Don't you have to download several Gb's to acually make them notice you?

It doesn't matter how much you download. Its specific torrents that are watched.
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09-10-2013, 01:23 PM
RE: Copyright Infringement
(09-10-2013 01:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(09-10-2013 12:38 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  It really isn't though. In an age where an artists work can be copied and shared so easily, it is that much easier for them to never see a dime of appreciation for what they do. Ought vs is in another light.

Absurd. "It's easy to steal this, so I will."

If those are your ethics, we will never be doing business.

You sound like those anti piracy videos "you wouldn't download a car"... Hell yeah I would, and everybody should if it were possible. Like downloading food, and clothes, and houses and everything anyone could need. That'd be ideal, in that scenario, even the designer wouldn't have a claim for profit.

But alas, things are not ideal, and until they are, how the hell do we make people prefer to pay for your product instead of copying it without paying? Higher penalties won't do it, it's a lousy solution and eventually it brings more problems than anything else.

That's why I insist we need a different business model, one that makes me want to pay. 99% (out of my ass, but pretty good estimate) of all transactions in the world are made voluntarily, there's no need for anyone to threat you with jail if you don't pay for that candy, even when it would be the easiest thing to steal them. For some reason that doesn't happen with IP stuff, clearly we're doing something wrong, the sensible approach is to ask how can we make it work, not how should we punish

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