Cornered Atheist or Cornered Theist?
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05-12-2011, 02:03 PM
Cornered Atheist or Cornered Theist?
I was watching some of the videos TTA has on youtube and I have to chime in on the theists on there. I can't help it. One particular theist made a comment to someone:

Quote:Indeed an example of bright intellectual logic and good behavior. Thanks for your "scientific" and rigorous argumentation.That's how most of the atheists act when they are cornered.

I responded with "Prove god exists without a shadow of doubt". He of course comes back with:
Quote:You don't even know what you ask for. What "proof without a shadow of doubt" do you want? Are you sure if such a proof exist, you are able to see it, to comprehend it or to accept it? You can put or remove "shadows of doubt" anytime you want.

I have informed him he is the cornered one by now.

I ask for proof and he dodges.
Quote:In order for a proof to exist FOR YOU, YOU must see it and approve it. The observer (you) influence this process. Try to think before you speak, if you pose as a supporter of science and logic. Arrogance can't be an argument. You don't even know what proof you want. Thanks for your "concern" but the one thinking circular isn't me.

It reminds me of a deer stuck in the high beams of my truck. I have found when you approach them with this question or if they can prove the soul exists; they are unable to do so. They like to play the circular game so I keep at them. Prove it, dodging, prove it. It seems to mess them up a bit.

Anyone had similar situations and found a better way to handle it? I know you have been in this situation. I just find it entertaining that they can't get out of this.

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05-12-2011, 02:08 PM
RE: Cornered Atheist or Cornered Theist?
(05-12-2011 02:03 PM)Clint Barnett Wrote:  I was watching some of the videos TTA has on youtube and I have to chime in on the theists on there. I can't help it. One particular theist made a comment to someone:

Quote:Indeed an example of bright intellectual logic and good behavior. Thanks for your "scientific" and rigorous argumentation.That's how most of the atheists act when they are cornered.

I responded with "Prove god exists without a shadow of doubt". He of course comes back with:
Quote:You don't even know what you ask for. What "proof without a shadow of doubt" do you want? Are you sure if such a proof exist, you are able to see it, to comprehend it or to accept it? You can put or remove "shadows of doubt" anytime you want.

I have informed him he is the cornered one by now.

I ask for proof and he dodges.
Quote:In order for a proof to exist FOR YOU, YOU must see it and approve it. The observer (you) influence this process. Try to think before you speak, if you pose as a supporter of science and logic. Arrogance can't be an argument. You don't even know what proof you want. Thanks for your "concern" but the one thinking circular isn't me.

It reminds me of a deer stuck in the high beams of my truck. I have found when you approach them with this question or if they can prove the soul exists; they are unable to do so. They like to play the circular game so I keep at them. Prove it, dodging, prove it. It seems to mess them up a bit.

Anyone had similar situations and found a better way to handle it? I know you have been in this situation. I just find it entertaining that they can't get out of this.

It depends on the point of view. You think you're right and have your reasons. He thinks he's right and has his reason. Technically, you're both wrong because no one can prove anything "beyond a shadow of a doubt".

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05-12-2011, 02:27 PM
RE: Cornered Atheist or Cornered Theist?
Cornering each other gains you... what? A moment of feeling like a winner - or loser, depending on the corner. But it just goes on and on, back and forth: prove it, you prove it, you, no you, can't prove it, nyah, nyah!

Why not try to ask each other why you believe what you believe and reject what you reject, tell the personal truth, instead of reciting page 48, and actually listen to the other guy. If you can share any of the grey zone in the middle, fine. If not, turn and walk off in opposite directions.

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05-12-2011, 02:29 PM (This post was last modified: 05-12-2011 02:35 PM by Clint Barnett.)
RE: Cornered Atheist or Cornered Theist?
Well considering a soul can't be proven and a deity has never been proven to exist. It's very simple If I came up to person and tried to convince them of a creature floating in space and granted me rights. That person would want proof. I of course couldn't provide proof. I would eventually be hauled off to a mental home.

It's the same case. I could write it down and call it unscientology. I've played these same mind games before. I was a christian for 30 years. It's much simpler to stick your head in the sand and ignore it.
(05-12-2011 02:27 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  Cornering each other gains you... what? A moment of feeling like a winner - or loser, depending on the corner. But it just goes on and on, back and forth: prove it, you prove it, you, no you, can't prove it, nyah, nyah!

Why not try to ask each other why you believe what you believe and reject what you reject, tell the personal truth, instead of reciting page 48, and actually listen to the other guy. If you can share any of the grey zone in the middle, fine. If not, turn and walk off in opposite directions.

I guess we'll have to disagree with the walking away part. Walking away has been failing us for too long. It's time for them to stop pretending. Where I live my 3 kids have to pretend to believe if they want any sort of life. So no walking away is not the answer anymore. Hiding is not the answer. Confronting the problem head on is the only way to fix it. I don't get angry or start fights or raise my voice in public. I ask for a little evidence. They can't provide it.

If you let it go away they will never consider questioning the silliness. Sure some might bite down harder. Someone will wake up Smile

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05-12-2011, 03:15 PM
RE: Cornered Atheist or Cornered Theist?
I think that he is handling the discussion in the right way and you are not. These arguments should not be about proving each other wrong. You will achieve nothing useful by simply saying that "prove this to me", because that implies that you are the self proclaimed "winner" by simply not accepting something that he might offer as "proof". On the contrary, he at least acknowledges that what he accepts as proof is subjective, and it cannot be a criterion for determining "victory". That is a good start.

Here is how I would handle the conversation: First, ask him to tell you what HE has accepted as proof. Then use a number of ways to show why what he has accepted as proof is too weak, even for him to have considered it in the first place. This could be in the form of finding fallacies in the proof (circular reasoning, argument from ignorance, argument from authority etc), finding farcical examples where the same proof would be valid (FSM, flying tea pot etc), and a number of other things. All the while, make it clear that you are not trying to win an argument, but simply trying to make him more critically analyze his own beliefs.

(05-12-2011 02:03 PM)Clint Barnett Wrote:  I was watching some of the videos TTA has on youtube and I have to chime in on the theists on there. I can't help it. One particular theist made a comment to someone:

Quote:Indeed an example of bright intellectual logic and good behavior. Thanks for your "scientific" and rigorous argumentation.That's how most of the atheists act when they are cornered.

I responded with "Prove god exists without a shadow of doubt". He of course comes back with:
Quote:You don't even know what you ask for. What "proof without a shadow of doubt" do you want? Are you sure if such a proof exist, you are able to see it, to comprehend it or to accept it? You can put or remove "shadows of doubt" anytime you want.

I have informed him he is the cornered one by now.

I ask for proof and he dodges.
Quote:In order for a proof to exist FOR YOU, YOU must see it and approve it. The observer (you) influence this process. Try to think before you speak, if you pose as a supporter of science and logic. Arrogance can't be an argument. You don't even know what proof you want. Thanks for your "concern" but the one thinking circular isn't me.

It reminds me of a deer stuck in the high beams of my truck. I have found when you approach them with this question or if they can prove the soul exists; they are unable to do so. They like to play the circular game so I keep at them. Prove it, dodging, prove it. It seems to mess them up a bit.

Anyone had similar situations and found a better way to handle it? I know you have been in this situation. I just find it entertaining that they can't get out of this.
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05-12-2011, 06:27 PM
RE: Cornered Atheist or Cornered Theist?
Confronting individual believers and telling them they're wrong will accomplish no more than leaving them alone. How many of them are there in the world? How many proselytizing atheists? How long will it take to convince them, one by one?

The problem is not who believes what, but who controls what. The problem is political. All the energy you waste failing to convince people that their religion is nonsense could be put to use organizing voters for a strong secular government, that will put the churches in their place.

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05-12-2011, 07:12 PM
RE: Cornered Atheist or Cornered Theist?
(05-12-2011 06:27 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  Confronting individual believers and telling them they're wrong will accomplish no more than leaving them alone. How many of them are there in the world? How many proselytizing atheists? How long will it take to convince them, one by one?

The problem is not who believes what, but who controls what. The problem is political. All the energy you waste failing to convince people that their religion is nonsense could be put to use organizing voters for a strong secular government, that will put the churches in their place.

I have to deal with 3 kids and go to full time school. I have little time to organize anything on a large scale. Until then I'll do what I have to. It provides me an outlet and at the same time provides me with more information on how to deal with personal confrontations. It does build up confidence as you learn to deal with certain situations and people. In the last few weeks I've learned more about what's going on in the world than I have in my past 36yrs of life.

I'd say going out and discussing, arguing, and debating with folks on the internet has opened my eyes. I am aware of more issues than I ever knew existed. I also am more comfortable with discussing issues that people approach me with. I'd prefer not to go into the world unprepared.

On another note, I don't go around telling people they are wrong. I ask them to provide evidence. I have been working on my brother for some time now. I'm slowly eating away at his belief. Generally in person I don't bring up the conversation. It is brought up to me.

Another thing, I have 3 children that are bombarded daily from family and friends with this religious nonsense. I have to keep them informed of facts and what is out there for them to be prepared for. I was in the Army for 10 years. If I learned anything it was to be prepared. If I send my kids in this world with little to no knowledge then I fail them. So yes I am going to keep up with my drive. If I reach one person outside of my home I have succeeded. Another person released from a mental prison.

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05-12-2011, 07:26 PM
RE: Cornered Atheist or Cornered Theist?
I usually don't bother commenting on any youtube videos... I swear, the commenters at that site have a collective IQ of 5.

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05-12-2011, 07:29 PM
RE: Cornered Atheist or Cornered Theist?
(05-12-2011 07:26 PM)Azaraith Wrote:  I usually don't bother commenting on any youtube videos... I swear, the commenters at that site have a collective IQ of 5.

yeah it is strange like that. I have about 2-3wks before school starts. I'm going into the medical field (nursing) and I'm just eating up time until I hit the books. I take classes and grade seriously. I just wished I did when I was younger lol

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05-12-2011, 08:39 PM
RE: Cornered Atheist or Cornered Theist?
(05-12-2011 07:12 PM)Clint Barnett Wrote:  On another note, I don't go around telling people they are wrong. I ask them to provide evidence. I have been working on my brother for some time now. I'm slowly eating away at his belief. Generally in person I don't bring up the conversation. It is brought up to me.

Knowledge is power that hasn't changed.

So far, i've seen no evidence that this approach is making a positive difference in the world; i've been watching it go more the other way. But i don't live where you live; it may be improving there.
As for the children, of course you must educate them - that's your job. I only said that educating the neighbours is not necessarily your job. But if it's working for you, i wish you nothing but success.

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