Cornered Atheist or Cornered Theist?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
07-12-2011, 06:19 PM
RE: Cornered Atheist or Cornered Theist?
(05-12-2011 07:12 PM)Clint Barnett Wrote:  Another thing, I have 3 children that are bombarded daily from family and friends with this religious nonsense. I have to keep them informed of facts and what is out there for them to be prepared for. I was in the Army for 10 years. If I learned anything it was to be prepared. If I send my kids in this world with little to no knowledge then I fail them. So yes I am going to keep up with my drive. If I reach one person outside of my home I have succeeded. Another person released from a mental prison.

Knowledge is power that hasn't changed.

I found that the best preparation for my kids was to let them know what others believed and what I believed and let them make up their own minds. Thankfully they opted for non-belief in any gods.

One of the problems with asking Christians for evidence is their reply that they don't need any evidence, they have "faith" and they throw it back onto the non-believer and ask for evidence that there is no god!

"To think of what the world has suffered from superstition, from religion, from the worship of beast and stone and god, is
almost enough to make one insane."

Robert G. Ingersoll
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Organon's post
07-12-2011, 09:27 PM
RE: Cornered Atheist or Cornered Theist?
(07-12-2011 06:19 PM)Organon Wrote:  
(05-12-2011 07:12 PM)Clint Barnett Wrote:  Another thing, I have 3 children that are bombarded daily from family and friends with this religious nonsense. I have to keep them informed of facts and what is out there for them to be prepared for. I was in the Army for 10 years. If I learned anything it was to be prepared. If I send my kids in this world with little to no knowledge then I fail them. So yes I am going to keep up with my drive. If I reach one person outside of my home I have succeeded. Another person released from a mental prison.

Knowledge is power that hasn't changed.

I found that the best preparation for my kids was to let them know what others believed and what I believed and let them make up their own minds. Thankfully they opted for non-belief in any gods.

One of the problems with asking Christians for evidence is their reply that they don't need any evidence, they have "faith" and they throw it back onto the non-believer and ask for evidence that there is no god!

I do find it funny that they try to reverse the proving to the non-believer. It's a lazy tactic. What I find even more funny is the tossing in your face of scriptures even though I had already told them that I think their book is a fairy tale. It's as though this part slips their mind and repeating it is going to change somehow.

Idiot: : a foolish or stupid person
— idiot adjective
See Republican Candidates.

Keeping realism alive, one honest offensive comment at a time!
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Clint Barnett's post
07-12-2011, 10:01 PM
RE: Cornered Atheist or Cornered Theist?
(07-12-2011 09:27 PM)Clint Barnett Wrote:  What I find even more funny is the tossing in your face of scriptures even though I had already told them that I think their book is a fairy tale. It's as though this part slips their mind and repeating it is going to change somehow.

Perhaps they earn credits from their god for trying? Big Grin

"To think of what the world has suffered from superstition, from religion, from the worship of beast and stone and god, is
almost enough to make one insane."

Robert G. Ingersoll
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-12-2011, 10:50 PM
RE: Cornered Atheist or Cornered Theist?
You're right, Clint, to assert that the burden of proof is on the theist. But if your theist friend doesn't already understand this idea, or what constitutes evidence, you'll just be arguing past each other. He doesn't even understand the rules of reasonable debate, so any further arguments (until this has first been fixed) is like throwing pearls before swine.

To quote Thomas Paine: “To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.”

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Starcrash's post
08-12-2011, 06:36 PM
RE: Cornered Atheist or Cornered Theist?
Asking what kind of "proof" you are looking for is a valid question. Proof doesn't really exist except for in mathematics and logic though. Science itself also doesn't know or care if any gods exist so if you are asking for direct scientific evidence for God, you won't find it. So I guess the question is, what kind of evidence would move you over to theism?

"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" Peter 3:15

http://www.answersforhope.org
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-12-2011, 10:45 PM
RE: Cornered Atheist or Cornered Theist?
(08-12-2011 06:36 PM)Spectre Wrote:  Asking what kind of "proof" you are looking for is a valid question. Proof doesn't really exist except for in mathematics and logic though. Science itself also doesn't know or care if any gods exist so if you are asking for direct scientific evidence for God, you won't find it. So I guess the question is, what kind of evidence would move you over to theism?

That's a great question, Spectre. In fact, it's the great question behind epistomology. But even though we can't "prove" anything, we still have to assume things based on the weight of the evidence. If you're solipsistic, and think that nothing outside your mind can be certain, then why attempt to form beliefs about anything?

It's strange that there is, according to you, no direct scientific evidence for God. After all, if he influences the world in any way, that influence ought to be detectable - otherwise, what good is it if it doesn't change anything? And to detect it, you just compare it to an uninfluenced control group. Testing prayer is the best method for this, as prayer is supposed to influence the outcome of God's decision in your favor ("Ask and ye shall receive"). But scientific tests of prayer have never shown it to be useful (after 17 of them you'd think we'd get the point).

Logic isn't in the favor of any one form of theism. The evidence that one would usually use to demonstrate his or her God ("Look at my God's handiwork in creation!") can be used by many or most religions, and to include your own evidence is to allow theirs, too. And as these religions are mutually exclusive, they can't all be believed. Does your holy book have fulfilled prophesies? So does their book. Does your book demonstrate advanced scientific knowledge? So does their book. If you don't believe me, just "Google" it. Do you believe in your God by faith when evidence fails? So do they. And how can you call them wrong if they're using your evidence to prove a different God? Is that evidence suddenly weak now, when you thought it was indisputable before?

But if a theist asks me that question directly - "What evidence would change your mind?" - I ask them to direct it to their god instead. After all, shouldn't he have the answer? Won't it be better than mine? I don't wonder why theists get frustrated at being unable to change my mind, even with an all-powerful God to turn to for the perfect piece of evidence. But perhaps you should wonder.

Before you write and explain why God can't change my mind - wouldn't a believer of a false god also have to explain why this is so? Wouldn't they have to defend their god and his lack of power? Why? ...Exactly.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Starcrash's post
09-12-2011, 06:28 PM (This post was last modified: 09-12-2011 06:37 PM by Spectre.)
RE: Cornered Atheist or Cornered Theist?
Your post is very insightful. You might make a good atheist philosopher.

(08-12-2011 10:45 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  That's a great question, Spectre. In fact, it's the great question behind epistomology. But even though we can't "prove" anything, we still have to assume things based on the weight of the evidence. If you're solipsistic, and think that nothing outside your mind can be certain, then why attempt to form beliefs about anything?
Evidence can be interpreted in different ways. God himself, and scientists do admit this, is outside the realm of science. There is no direct scientific evidence for God, one can argue design, but then you have the inevitable question of "who was the designer?"

Just because science can not study anything outside of nature itself, does not mean that it is pointless to believe in anything. After all, many philosophical arguments are based off of an interpretation of evidence.

(08-12-2011 10:45 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  It's strange that there is, according to you, no direct scientific evidence for God. After all, if he influences the world in any way, that influence ought to be detectable - otherwise, what good is it if it doesn't change anything? And to detect it, you just compare it to an uninfluenced control group.
How would science go about proving that there is design? One could argue that things look designed and call draw many parallels to demonstrate design, but the other side can argue that it is an illusion. Where does that get us? A war of words in an area of ignorance. We know we are here, we know things look like they are designed, but on the other hand, the other side can argue that anything that would pass natural selection would probably look designed. This is why the design argument is not direct evidence for a god, especially the Christian God, because you'd still have the question of who the designer is. However, one could base philosophical arguments on this type of data.


(08-12-2011 10:45 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  Testing prayer is the best method for this, as prayer is supposed to influence the outcome of God's decision in your favor ("Ask and ye shall receive").
Even if God is real, there are too many variables to give a truly scientific test of prayer. While The Bible says "Ask and ye shall receive"(and a few other verses to this affect in fact.) The Bible also says in James 4:3 "You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions."

Not to mention, there are many stories in The Bible where the characters prayed and their prayers were not answered in the way they wanted. It just isn't logical to draw such conclusions from a scientific tests when:

1.) The Bible shows that there are apparently variables that determine whether or not prayers are answered.

2.) The Bible openly shows that prayers are not answered in the way we want them to be.


(08-12-2011 10:45 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  But scientific tests of prayer have never shown it to be useful (after 17 of them you'd think we'd get the point).
See above.

(08-12-2011 10:45 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  Logic isn't in the favor of any one form of theism. The evidence that one would usually use to demonstrate his or her God ("Look at my God's handiwork in creation!") can be used by many or most religions, and to include your own evidence is to allow theirs, too. And as these religions are mutually exclusive, they can't all be believed. Does your holy book have fulfilled prophesies? So does their book. Does your book demonstrate advanced scientific knowledge? So does their book. If you don't believe me, just "Google" it.
I don't use Bible prophecies or marvels of science to validate The Bible. Everyone knows that different people who read the same book will walk away with different ideas from the book. Because of this, such arguments just aren't valid. I agree with you here.

Such arguments as "look at my god's handiwork" are the types of arguments one would use against an atheist that asserts that there is no god. (Which I have to ask, do you withhold belief in any god or do you deny the existence of any gods?) You would never see theists of different religions use those arguments. Theists believe there is a god, it is just that many disagree on who that god is, which is an entirely different question.


(08-12-2011 10:45 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  Do you believe in your God by faith when evidence fails? So do they. And how can you call them wrong if they're using your evidence to prove a different God? Is that evidence suddenly weak now, when you thought it was indisputable before?
I think comments like this may stem from you not knowing how I look at Christianity or theism. I would like to point out one thing to you. If Zeus exists, atheism is false, if God exists, atheism is false, if Allah exists, atheism is false, if Neptune exists, atheism is false, if a god exists but is unknown to us, atheism is wrong. I think you get my point.

If I were an atheist, who the god is would be irrelevant to me, I'd be more concerned with whether or not any god exists. So, what do theists do to try and see who is right? They'd have to look at the evidence for the validity of their holy books.(Which can give a good idea of what religion that corresponds to the god has the most validity.) The Bible itself has a plentiful number of archaeological marvels and mysteries that other religions either don't have(mostly don't have) or have very little of. I know of no other holy book that has an entire field of archaeology that is dedicated to it. In fact, I myself, got curious and wondered if other books such as the Qur'ran had archaeological evidence. Instead, I find a site of excuses to believe in the Qur'ran even though there is no archaeological evidence. I have to wonder if you can find any holy book with archaeological findings that support it like The Bible has.

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/

At the very least, the sources for The Bible are more reliable than other holy books. What holy books do you know of that even compares to The Bible in the field of archaeology? Perhaps you have seen something that I haven't.

(08-12-2011 10:45 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  But if a theist asks me that question directly - "What evidence would change your mind?" - I ask them to direct it to their god instead.
When I think of theism, I don't think of Christianity. I think of the multitude of beliefs that fall under the category of theism. But you can certainly feel free to answer the question however you like. What evidence would it take for you to leave atheism for whatever religion, you can single out Christianity if you want.



(08-12-2011 10:45 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  After all, shouldn't he have the answer? Won't it be better than mine? I don't wonder why theists get frustrated at being unable to change my mind, even with an all-powerful God to turn to for the perfect piece of evidence. But perhaps you should wonder.
Everyone has a different standard for evidence. Some people simply take more to convince of a belief than others. This is why the question itself is valid. Such things are demonstrated in science, the courtrooms, and even among regular laypeople.

(08-12-2011 10:45 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  Before you write and explain why God can't change my mind - wouldn't a believer of a false god also have to explain why this is so? Wouldn't they have to defend their god and his lack of power? Why? ...Exactly.
It wouldn't be as much of a question of "can he change my mind" as it would be "why doesn't he change their mind?" You can ask all of the people in The Bible who had to feel the wrath of God I suppose. Apparently even The Bible admits that things just don't work that way.

Thanks again for your insightful post. With the holidays coming up, please don't be offended if I disappear. I just thought your post was insightful and warranted a response.

"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" Peter 3:15

http://www.answersforhope.org
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Spectre's post
09-12-2011, 07:27 PM (This post was last modified: 09-12-2011 07:30 PM by Chas.)
RE: Cornered Atheist or Cornered Theist?
(09-12-2011 06:28 PM)Spectre Wrote:  Your post is very insightful. You might make a good atheist philosopher.

(08-12-2011 10:45 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  That's a great question, Evidence can be interpreted in different ways. God himself, and scientists do admit this, is outside the realm of science. There is no direct scientific evidence for God, one can argue design, but then you have the inevitable question of "who was the designer?"
No, not all scientists agree that the existence of God is outside the realm of science.
The primary argument is that if we hypothesize that the god of Christianity/Judaism/Islam exists, then there should be evidence of that.
There is no evidence, therefore the hypothesis is false beyond a reasonable doubt.
For a fuller explanation, read Victor J. Stenger's GOD The Failed Hypothesis?: How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist

Quote:Such arguments as "look at my god's handiwork" are the types of arguments one would use against an atheist that asserts that there is no god. (Which I have to ask, do you withhold belief in any god or do you deny the existence of any gods?) You would never see theists of different religions use those arguments. Theists believe there is a god, it is just that many disagree on who that god is, which is an entirely different question.

The universe looks just the way one would expect if there were no God. There is no evidence of the existence of any gods, and there is plenty of evidence for the purely material explanations of science.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-12-2011, 08:26 PM
RE: Cornered Atheist or Cornered Theist?
(09-12-2011 07:27 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, not all scientists agree that the existence of God is outside the realm of science.
The primary argument is that if we hypothesize that the god of Christianity/Judaism/Islam exists, then there should be evidence of that.
There is no evidence, therefore the hypothesis is false beyond a reasonable doubt.
For a fuller explanation, read Victor J. Stenger's GOD The Failed Hypothesis?: How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist
Opinion and science are two different things. Outside of the field of science scientists can certainly express their opinion on the supernatural. I challenge you to find one university that teaches that science has shown there are no gods.

Here are some articles on what science is and what science isn't:

http://www.indiana.edu/~ensiweb/lessons/unt.s.is.html

http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/railsba...ence1.html

http://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/whatisscience_01




(09-12-2011 07:27 PM)Chas Wrote:  The universe looks just the way one would expect if there were no God. There is no evidence of the existence of any gods, and there is plenty of evidence for the purely material explanations of science.
The universe looks like a universe that has no god? Compared to what? What is all of this babble that I hear from renowned atheist about the appearance of design if this is true? Please indulge me.

I'm confused by your last statement, are you saying there is evidence that can help us conclude there are no gods? If you have found it you can easily become a millionaire. I'd start writing your book now if I were you. But seriously, are you saying there is evidence against god or are you trying to say that because we can explain things with material processes, therefore there are no gods?

"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" Peter 3:15

http://www.answersforhope.org
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-12-2011, 08:43 PM
RE: Cornered Atheist or Cornered Theist?
Quote:If I were an atheist, who the god is would be irrelevant to me, I'd be more concerned with whether or not any god exists. So, what do theists do to try and see who is right? They'd have to look at the evidence for the validity of their holy books.(Which can give a good idea of what religion that corresponds to the god has the most validity.) The Bible itself has a plentiful number of archaeological marvels and mysteries that other religions either don't have(mostly don't have) or have very little of. I know of no other holy book that has an entire field of archaeology that is dedicated to it. In fact, I myself, got curious and wondered if other books such as the Qur'ran had archaeological evidence. Instead, I find a site of excuses to believe in the Qur'ran even though there is no archaeological evidence. I have to wonder if you can find any holy book with archaeological findings that support it like The Bible has.

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/

At the very least, the sources for The Bible are more reliable than other holy books. What holy books do you know of that even compares to The Bible in the field of archaeology? Perhaps you have seen something that I haven't.

The mention of locations and structures does not in any way confirm the validity of a book. There are a great many fictional books from all of history that mention such things. I can write a book mentioning every city structure in our modern society. This does not make the book more valid than anything else. It just shows I used common knowledge of architecture in my book.

Have you ever read recorded history from the times the bible was written? It looks nothing like that story book.

I followed that link you provided. There are a lot of assumption from unnamed "sources." (if this didn't catch your eye then bias is on your side) If we change a time period it fits the bible mess. Never do they mention changing something in the bible. It's a complete bias approach to archaeology and that is why it won't be accepted by main stream archaeology.

I like how you can look at a site about qur'ran and claim they have excuses but your religious sites don't seem to have excuses. You may need to use this test:

"The Outsider Test for Faith"
•You must test your own religious claims and texts by the same standards you apply to other religions.
•If your religion's claims and texts fare no better, then your religion is just as false as theirs is.

The next time you watch Independence day (ID4) and they show the twin towers remember that movie must be real. I just wish they would find those space ships so we could travel in space too!

Idiot: : a foolish or stupid person
— idiot adjective
See Republican Candidates.

Keeping realism alive, one honest offensive comment at a time!
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: