Corrupted Innocence
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04-09-2015, 09:29 AM
Corrupted Innocence
Many times on this forum- and especially lately- I have been questioned about the validity of my signature. I have never given a detailed response to it, because the detailed response is something a little more elaborate than what is on the surface.

Firstly, my signature reflects one of the three- the third one- of the most common understandings of the definition of atheism listed below:

"Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is the absence of belief that any deities exist."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

It is true that we are all born with no beliefs in anything, but inclusive in the lack of beliefs in anything is also our lack of beliefs in the existence of any deities.

It is not until we learn from religion that we become indoctrinated into religious beliefs, and that is when our lack of beliefs in the existence of deities ends. At a very young age we are taught about a god or gods, and we move from being naturally atheistic into the world of supernaturally inclined theism.

To me, at least, it certainly appears that theism corrupts our natural state of a lack of belief in gods; a state we are all born into. It doesn't matter whatsoever whatever else we lack beliefs in when we are born, for it is a certainty that we lack beliefs in any gods when we are born.

The new child is born completely into innocence, only to later be subjected to religious beliefs that can- as we have all witnessed many times- impair the judgement of that person later in life. We see this impaired judgement on a daily basis with Islamic Militants, fanatical Christians, and various religious scams aimed at the poor and despondent. We all know and agree that this, at least, to be the truth.

So my signature is more than just the words we see, as it represents my position against the corruption of our innocent children through the indoctrination of religious beliefs.

I understand how many of you will still disagree with my signature though, but I just felt that it should be explained a bit more so that perhaps some of you would understand where I am coming from.

Smile

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04-09-2015, 09:43 AM
RE: Corrupted Innocence
(04-09-2015 09:29 AM)Free Wrote:  "Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is the absence of belief that any deities exist."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

It is true that we are all born with no beliefs in anything, but inclusive in the lack of beliefs in anything is also our lack of beliefs in the existence of any deities.

It is not until we learn from religion that we become indoctrinated into religious beliefs, and that is when our lack of beliefs in the existence of deities ends. At a very young age we are taught about a god or gods, and we move from being naturally atheistic into the world of supernaturally inclined theism.


No, that's not the case at all, the evidence suggests as early as we can trace, even among children not reared in religious home, that children are prone to teleological view of life, an intuitive belief that we're a part of some created order. That pointy rocks are for porcupines to scratch their back. Specific religious beliefs are built on top of these intuitive perceptions. It's these intuitive perceptions that account for the prevalence of religious beliefs among nearly every human culture that has ever existed.

It's the notion that we live in uncreated, or purposeless universe that would be a counter intuitive view, even it were true. Children are not inclined to look at all this, and believe that it's just sound and fury, but that life is endowed by some sort of significance and meaning.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-09-2015, 09:44 AM
RE: Corrupted Innocence
(04-09-2015 09:43 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-09-2015 09:29 AM)Free Wrote:  "Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is the absence of belief that any deities exist."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

It is true that we are all born with no beliefs in anything, but inclusive in the lack of beliefs in anything is also our lack of beliefs in the existence of any deities.

It is not until we learn from religion that we become indoctrinated into religious beliefs, and that is when our lack of beliefs in the existence of deities ends. At a very young age we are taught about a god or gods, and we move from being naturally atheistic into the world of supernaturally inclined theism.


No, that's not the case at all, the evidence suggests as early as we can trace, even among children not reared in religious home, that children are prone to teleological view of life, an intuitive belief that we're a part of some created order. That pointy rocks are for porcupines to scratch their back. Specific religious beliefs are built on top of these intuitive perceptions. It's these intuitive perceptions that account for the prevalence of religious beliefs among nearly every human culture that has ever existed.

It's the notion that we live in uncreated, or purposeless universe that would be a counter intuitive view, even it were true. Children are not inclined to look at all this, and believe that it's just sound and fury, but that life is endowed by some sort of significance and meaning.

No child at birth has any idea whatsoever about any kind of beliefs in any kind of deities.

Not one.

It requires people like you to corrupt them with lies and falsehoods. It requires people like you to indoctrinate them into a world of fantasy, discrimination, hatred, violence, and wars.

They are born innocent, and people like you poison their minds.

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04-09-2015, 09:46 AM
RE: Corrupted Innocence
(04-09-2015 09:44 AM)Free Wrote:  
(04-09-2015 09:43 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  No, that's not the case at all, the evidence suggests as early as we can trace, even among children not reared in religious home, that children are prone to teleological view of life, an intuitive belief that we're a part of some created order. That pointy rocks are for porcupines to scratch their back. Specific religious beliefs are built on top of these intuitive perceptions. It's these intuitive perceptions that account for the prevalence of religious beliefs among nearly every human culture that has ever existed.

It's the notion that we live in uncreated, or purposeless universe that would be a counter intuitive view, even it were true. Children are not inclined to look at all this, and believe that it's just sound and fury, but that life is endowed by some sort of significance and meaning.

No child at birth has any idea whatsoever about any kind of beliefs in any kind of deities.

Not one.

Or mostly about anything, except like how to suckle.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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04-09-2015, 10:00 AM
RE: Corrupted Innocence
(04-09-2015 09:29 AM)Free Wrote:  I have never given a detailed response to it, because the detailed response is something a little more elaborate than what is on the surface.

Never, in internet time.

Now you know why my signature here and on other forums says, "I am an atheist because I was born this way."
You know what's missing, of course:
Quote:So my signature is more than just the words we see, as it represents my position against the corruption of our innocent children through the indoctrination of religious beliefs.
I checked, here. Ain't up to checking elsewhere.
I really think someone kicked your puppy as a kid, and you never got your revenge; and you're still sore. Tongue

Ever think perhaps that what is objectionable is the obnoxious size and coloring? Just a thought.

...and being wrong. Big Grin
I'm such a fucking douchebag! Evil_monster

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04-09-2015, 10:16 AM (This post was last modified: 04-09-2015 10:20 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Corrupted Innocence
(04-09-2015 09:44 AM)Free Wrote:  No child at birth has any idea whatsoever about any kind of beliefs in any kind of deities.

If that's your argument. No child at birth has any beliefs whatsoever. They not only lack a belief that God exists, but they lack a belief that they themselves exist. In fact we could just as well say that no other animal but humans have beliefs.

Not one.

Quote:It requires people like you to corrupt them with lies and falsehoods. It requires people like you to indoctrinate them into a world of fantasy, discrimination, hatred, violence, and wars.

They are born innocent, and people like you poison their minds.


There's a difference between saying no child at birth has any beliefs whatsoever, and insinuating that beliefs are acquired by other people corrupting them. As if children who intuitively subscribe to teleological beliefs, need parents or folks who subscribe to such beliefs for this to be the case. When they can conceive the world, the perception is weighted regardless of parental influence to perceive a world endowed and enchanted by purpose, even if they can't fully articulate the world, or acquire a complete language to do so. And it's not weighted by their parents or social corruption.

Children have intuitive teleological perspective of life, just like they have intuitive moral senses, a sense of fairness, etc... This doesn't make any of these beliefs true or course. But it does show why religion has its work cut out for it.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-09-2015, 10:28 AM
RE: Corrupted Innocence
(04-09-2015 10:16 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-09-2015 09:44 AM)Free Wrote:  No child at birth has any idea whatsoever about any kind of beliefs in any kind of deities.

If that's your argument. No child at birth has any beliefs whatsoever. They not only lack a belief that God exists, but they lack a belief that they themselves exist. In fact we could just as well say that no other animal but humans have beliefs.

Not one.

And that is entirely my point. Thank you for confirming my point.

We are done.

Bowing

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04-09-2015, 10:33 AM
RE: Corrupted Innocence
@Tomasia

While I would agree with you that children can and do acquire a teleological perspective (acquire because they are not born with it) without the influence of their parents, community, society and culture, I would not be so sure about their moral senses. Infants and young children (bellow the age of 6) are by far the most violent, egoist, cruel, insensitive pricks of the entire human race by far. An adult with the classical behavior of a 3 year old child is usually considered a psychopath. Of course has the brain develop itself and acquire new knowledge it transform the child into a decent human being (most of the time).

It's also the case for many of their teleological perspective if it isn't reinforced by parents, community, society or culture. We naturally outgrow our most simple explanation. That's why I don't consider mommy to be the ultimate authority on knowledge and my dad isn't the incarnation of strength anymore. That's also why children naturally stop believing in their imaginary friends, Santa or the Tooth Fairy. Most people living in an environment that isn't religious will turn out to be apatheist. They just won't give a shit or thought about the existence of God or not. Some will even perceive thinking about that like cloud chasing.
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04-09-2015, 10:34 AM
RE: Corrupted Innocence
(04-09-2015 10:00 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(04-09-2015 09:29 AM)Free Wrote:  I have never given a detailed response to it, because the detailed response is something a little more elaborate than what is on the surface.

Never, in internet time.

Now you know why my signature here and on other forums says, "I am an atheist because I was born this way."
You know what's missing, of course:
Quote:So my signature is more than just the words we see, as it represents my position against the corruption of our innocent children through the indoctrination of religious beliefs.
I checked, here. Ain't up to checking elsewhere.
I really think someone kicked your puppy as a kid, and you never got your revenge; and you're still sore. Tongue

Ever think perhaps that what is objectionable is the obnoxious size and coloring? Just a thought.

...and being wrong. Big Grin
I'm such a fucking douchebag! Evil_monster

You need a kick in the ass.

Wink

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04-09-2015, 10:38 AM
RE: Corrupted Innocence
(04-09-2015 09:43 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-09-2015 09:29 AM)Free Wrote:  "Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is the absence of belief that any deities exist."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

It is true that we are all born with no beliefs in anything, but inclusive in the lack of beliefs in anything is also our lack of beliefs in the existence of any deities.

It is not until we learn from religion that we become indoctrinated into religious beliefs, and that is when our lack of beliefs in the existence of deities ends. At a very young age we are taught about a god or gods, and we move from being naturally atheistic into the world of supernaturally inclined theism.


No, that's not the case at all, the evidence suggests as early as we can trace, even among children not reared in religious home, that children are prone to teleological view of life, an intuitive belief that we're a part of some created order. That pointy rocks are for porcupines to scratch their back. Specific religious beliefs are built on top of these intuitive perceptions. It's these intuitive perceptions that account for the prevalence of religious beliefs among nearly every human culture that has ever existed.

It's the notion that we live in uncreated, or purposeless universe that would be a counter intuitive view, even it were true. Children are not inclined to look at all this, and believe that it's just sound and fury, but that life is endowed by some sort of significance and meaning.

Right, if that were the case, then christianity would not have evolved like it did and it would be as old as humanity itself. There is no divine significance and meaning. You are capable of defining your own purpose.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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