Corrupted Innocence
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04-09-2015, 04:45 PM
RE: Corrupted Innocence
(04-09-2015 02:43 PM)Alla Wrote:  There is a reason why we are born without any knowledge and faith in God/Gods.
There is a veil. We have to forget about what we knew about God before we come here/before we obtain these mortal physical bodies.

Did anyone get the number of that post-hoc?

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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04-09-2015, 05:15 PM
RE: Corrupted Innocence
(04-09-2015 04:45 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(04-09-2015 02:43 PM)Alla Wrote:  There is a reason why we are born without any knowledge and faith in God/Gods.
There is a veil. We have to forget about what we knew about God before we come here/before we obtain these mortal physical bodies.

Did anyone get the number of that post-hoc?

I think it was Room 666 in Plato's Cave? No?

The more I read Alla's beliefs as a regular Mormon instead of an elder or scholar like GWoG the more interesting they become. So far what I've gotten is she is a polytheistic, universal reconciliation Buddhist pretending to be Christian so they didn't get slaughtered on the way to the promised land (which turned out to be a dead sea in the middle of the desert in Utah, go figure).

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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04-09-2015, 05:21 PM
RE: Corrupted Innocence
(04-09-2015 04:40 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Now it's too small leaving mine the more obnoxious. Weeping

Big Grin


HA!

No Gwynnies for you!

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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04-09-2015, 05:28 PM
RE: Corrupted Innocence
(04-09-2015 09:43 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-09-2015 09:29 AM)Free Wrote:  "Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is the absence of belief that any deities exist."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

It is true that we are all born with no beliefs in anything, but inclusive in the lack of beliefs in anything is also our lack of beliefs in the existence of any deities.

It is not until we learn from religion that we become indoctrinated into religious beliefs, and that is when our lack of beliefs in the existence of deities ends. At a very young age we are taught about a god or gods, and we move from being naturally atheistic into the world of supernaturally inclined theism.


No, that's not the case at all, the evidence suggests as early as we can trace, even among children not reared in religious home, that children are prone to teleological view of life, an intuitive belief that we're a part of some created order. That pointy rocks are for porcupines to scratch their back. Specific religious beliefs are built on top of these intuitive perceptions. It's these intuitive perceptions that account for the prevalence of religious beliefs among nearly every human culture that has ever existed.

It's the notion that we live in uncreated, or purposeless universe that would be a counter intuitive view, even it were true. Children are not inclined to look at all this, and believe that it's just sound and fury, but that life is endowed by some sort of significance and meaning.

You forgot one thing. Name the references for your claims. Without them, you have nothing.

Either way, it's all rubbish. What children hold or believe is totally irrelevant. Humans learn. They are pattern seeking monkeys. Their brains evolved to deal with reality as found on the savannahs of Africa. Turns out, what is intuitively true, is not the way the fundamentals of reality work.

I await a vast list of references for your claims.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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04-09-2015, 05:32 PM
RE: Corrupted Innocence
(04-09-2015 05:21 PM)Free Wrote:  
(04-09-2015 04:40 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Now it's too small leaving mine the more obnoxious. Weeping

Big Grin


HA!

No Gwynnies for you!

Oh shit, ... FIRE IN THE HOLE! DUCK AND COVER BITCHES!

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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04-09-2015, 08:34 PM
RE: Corrupted Innocence
(04-09-2015 05:15 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(04-09-2015 04:45 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Did anyone get the number of that post-hoc?

I think it was Room 666 in Plato's Cave? No?

The more I read Alla's beliefs as a regular Mormon instead of an elder or scholar like GWoG the more interesting they become. So far what I've gotten is she is a polytheistic, universal reconciliation Buddhist pretending to be Christian so they didn't get slaughtered on the way to the promised land (which turned out to be a dead sea in the middle of the desert in Utah, go figure).
Big Grin

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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04-09-2015, 09:55 PM
RE: Corrupted Innocence
(04-09-2015 08:34 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(04-09-2015 05:15 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I think it was Room 666 in Plato's Cave? No?

The more I read Alla's beliefs as a regular Mormon instead of an elder or scholar like GWoG the more interesting they become. So far what I've gotten is she is a polytheistic, universal reconciliation Buddhist pretending to be Christian so they didn't get slaughtered on the way to the promised land (which turned out to be a dead sea in the middle of the desert in Utah, go figure).
Big Grin




There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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05-09-2015, 10:45 AM
RE: Corrupted Innocence
(04-09-2015 10:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-09-2015 10:38 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Right, if that were the case, then christianity would not have evolved like it did and it would be as old as humanity itself.

No christianity would require that the child to be introduced to it. It's built on top of those intuitive beliefs, like all formalized religions are. Just like localized moral values, and beliefs are built on top of intuitive moral assumptions present in them when they were still babies.

Quote:No christianity would require that the child to be introduced to it. It's built on top of those intuitive beliefs, like all formalized religions are.

This utter rubbish. I was raised in a very secluded mountainous area away from civilization but had no concept of a god or gods as a child. I especially never had a "intuitive" belief in some sort of god. The beautiful nature which surrounded me as a child was simply nature in it's own beauty. It didn't need to be created.

And when, at the age of 9 or 10 someone mentioned the name jesus, I asked who jesus was. It was explained that he was born of a virgin and was the son of god, walked on water and all that, to which I thought, this is the most unnatural, ridiculous story I've ever heard. I had an "intuitive" reaction to that story.....that it was a bunch of bullshit.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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05-09-2015, 04:20 PM
RE: Corrupted Innocence
(05-09-2015 10:45 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(04-09-2015 10:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  No christianity would require that the child to be introduced to it. It's built on top of those intuitive beliefs, like all formalized religions are. Just like localized moral values, and beliefs are built on top of intuitive moral assumptions present in them when they were still babies.

Quote:No christianity would require that the child to be introduced to it. It's built on top of those intuitive beliefs, like all formalized religions are.

This utter rubbish. I was raised in a very secluded mountainous area away from civilization but had no concept of a god or gods as a child. I especially never had a "intuitive" belief in some sort of god. The beautiful nature which surrounded me as a child was simply nature in it's own beauty. It didn't need to be created.

And when, at the age of 9 or 10 someone mentioned the name jesus, I asked who jesus was. It was explained that he was born of a virgin and was the son of god, walked on water and all that, to which I thought, this is the most unnatural, ridiculous story I've ever heard. I had an "intuitive" reaction to that story.....that it was a bunch of bullshit.

Prior to being a Christian, I was raised Irish Catholic--and despite that, I didn't hear anything about Jesus until I was 6 and went to my first CCD class. Before that I didn't think there was anything outside my own little world.

Before hearing anything about God, I remember playing with Barbies on the floor of my room. My door wasn't shut all the way and opened a little by itself. I remember freaking out and asking my dad if it was a ghost (I knew about those from tv) and he just laughed and said no, your windows are opened and a breeze moved it. I do think often times as a child your mind goes to well such and such happened so someone or something must have done it--which is why religion is so effective at taking hold--especially when you are young.
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05-09-2015, 06:12 PM (This post was last modified: 05-09-2015 06:15 PM by mordant.)
RE: Corrupted Innocence
(04-09-2015 09:29 AM)Free Wrote:  I understand how many of you will still disagree with my signature though, but I just felt that it should be explained a bit more so that perhaps some of you would understand where I am coming from.
Thanks for explaining. Not that you're obligated to or something.

I have to be one of those who doesn't really agree, although I'm sympathetic to the notion.

It's my position that although children aren't born with some sort of baked-in religious ideology, they are born with perceptual quirks common to most people. Most notably agency inference and confirmation bias. In early childhood they are also very prone to magical thinking and before about age 10 have difficulty separating fantasy from reality. So I maintain that if no adult ever mentioned religion they might still make up some sort of primitive proto-religion half the time anyway. However, lacking indoctrination, reinforcement and social pressure, they would likely outgrow it, just as some children have invisible friends and outgrow that.

Of course, above I am assuming the adults would not be teaching rational thinking, logical fallacies detection, foundations of philosophy and logic, the SM, etc. An adult who understands these things and guides the child to question things, to have healthy skepticism, to reason their way to real answers on their own ... THAT would be a world of difference and I think the child who would resist it kicking and screaming and demanding magic invisible sky daddies would be incredibly rare, if it ever happened at all.
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