Court decision on gay marriage would be good or bad?
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26-03-2013, 08:22 PM
RE: Court decision on gay marriage would be good or bad?
I would like the court to strike down all laws restricting marriage
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26-03-2013, 08:38 PM
RE: Court decision on gay marriage would be good or bad?
(26-03-2013 08:22 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I would like the court to strike down all laws restricting marriage
Right on. Thumbsup

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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26-03-2013, 08:49 PM
RE: Court decision on gay marriage would be good or bad?
(26-03-2013 08:38 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(26-03-2013 08:22 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I would like the court to strike down all laws restricting marriage
Right on. Thumbsup
That is according to most polling data the majority opinion. Ironicly the fact that it is becoming a prohibitivly majority opinion is probably why it wont happen with this case.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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26-03-2013, 08:55 PM
RE: Court decision on gay marriage would be good or bad?
(26-03-2013 08:49 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(26-03-2013 08:38 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Right on. Thumbsup
That is according to most polling data the majority opinion. Ironicly the fact that it is becoming a prohibitivly majority opinion is probably why it wont happen with this case.
Oh I definitely don't have the feeling that it will happen here and now. But given the recent surge in activism and public support for equality, we're not too far off from it. Regarding whether or not a sweeping ruling is better than a gradual change, I'm not really qualified to comment. But rational discourse showing a push for positive change among americans even in the face of religious opposition is just really good to see.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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26-03-2013, 09:08 PM
RE: Court decision on gay marriage would be good or bad?
(26-03-2013 08:55 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(26-03-2013 08:49 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  That is according to most polling data the majority opinion. Ironicly the fact that it is becoming a prohibitivly majority opinion is probably why it wont happen with this case.
Oh I definitely don't have the feeling that it will happen here and now. But given the recent surge in activism and public support for equality, we're not too far off from it. Regarding whether or not a sweeping ruling is better than a gradual change, I'm not really qualified to comment. But rational discourse showing a push for positive change among americans even in the face of religious opposition is just really good to see.
I'm actualy not sure which would be better. That is the reason I made this thread to see where the conversation would go. I think we are within 10 years of it being law of the land either way. Thats honestly the reason I'm not rabid about it being decided in the courts. With the shifts in public opinion being a steady gain over the last 10 years and showing no sign of stoping more and more states will move from one side of the ledger to the other until there comes a tipping point. Now I stated earlier that 26 states would force the hand of the court. I hope it doesnt take that long but if half the country has already said yes there exsists a need for equal rights under the law the SCOTUS would be basicaly mopping up the remains of the bible belt and dragging them into the current century... again. From a constitutional standpoint Loving v Virginia is all the case file you need to read. It states definativly that Marriage is a civil right, it is universal and dening that right to one group is unconstitutional. On the positive side the court today basicaly decimated the anti-rights side's entire slew of arguments. Even Scalia being troll judge he likes to be wasn't able to succesfully throw the proponents of prop 8 a bone.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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27-03-2013, 08:23 AM (This post was last modified: 27-03-2013 10:20 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Court decision on gay marriage would be good or bad?
(26-03-2013 02:56 PM)cufflink Wrote:  This morning our local NPR station played a tape of the entire SCOTUS session on Prop 8, which they broadcast only a couple of hours after its conclusion. Listening to the questions and responses from the justices, I got the distinct feeling that the Court was simply not ready to make a sweeping 50-state ruling about same-sex marriage--i.e., your Option 3. If I had to bet, I'd say it's very likely we're going to get gay marriage back in California; it's up in the air whether Option 2 (require marriage equality only in those states that already grant civil-union status to same sex couples) will be adopted; and it's very unlikely the Supremes will come down on the side of marriage equality in all 50 states (Option 3).

I'm more hopeful about DOMA. Striking that monstrosity down would not mean imposing marriage equality on the entire country; it would simply take off the books the statute that says the Federal government cannot recognize same-sex marriages as marriages. The probable result would be that the Feds would treat all marriages allowed by the states as real marriages under federal law, which would be a welcome change for a lot of us. (Right now my husband and I file our income taxes as a married couple in California but as two single individuals for the Feds. It's a mess.)

Although I've thought a lot about gay marriage, I realize I haven't given enough thought to the possible consequences of a sweeping SCOTUS decision on the side of equality, à la Brown v. Board of Education or Roe v. Wade--in particular, the backlash effect and a re-energizing of the religious right. Discussions like the one in this thread and also in this article by a Georgetown law professor in today's NY Times are making me rethink my position. As the saying goes, be careful what you wish for . . .

I think SCOTUS is acutely aware of how fast public opionion on this is changing, and doesn't want to diminish their own authority. I think it's entirely possible both the Prop 8 case and the DOMA case will be dismissed on procedural grounds. Prop 8 will be dismissed as the Ca authorities refused to appeal the Appeals court decision to strike down Prop 8, thus if SCOTUS says those who brought the case have no standing, the Appeals case stands, (Kennedy said twice yesterday "why not just dismiss this case"). That way Prop 8 is gone, same-sex marriage stands in Ca, and the wider problem is evaded, and the states are left to deal with rapidly changing public opinion in their own ways. Bastions of Bible red necks, such as the South can come along a hundred years later, like they do in everything else. In DOMA they could also dismiss the "appeal" by the House, (as they also have no standing ??) as the admin refused to defend it, thus DOMA also is not really settled , but the court side steps taking the heat. Roberts is acutely aware of the way history will perceive his court and it just makes more sense to let others take the heat, and leave his court out of it, for now.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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27-03-2013, 10:16 AM
RE: Court decision on gay marriage would be good or bad?
(27-03-2013 08:23 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(26-03-2013 02:56 PM)cufflink Wrote:  This morning our local NPR station played a tape of the entire SCOTUS session on Prop 8, which they broadcast only a couple of hours after its conclusion. Listening to the questions and responses from the justices, I got the distinct feeling that the Court was simply not ready to make a sweeping 50-state ruling about same-sex marriage--i.e., your Option 3. If I had to bet, I'd say it's very likely we're going to get gay marriage back in California; it's up in the air whether Option 2 (require marriage equality only in those states that already grant civil-union status to same sex couples) will be adopted; and it's very unlikely the Supremes will come down on the side of marriage equality in all 50 states (Option 3).

I'm more hopeful about DOMA. Striking that monstrosity down would not mean imposing marriage equality on the entire country; it would simply take off the books the statute that says the Federal government cannot recognize same-sex marriages as marriages. The probable result would be that the Feds would treat all marriages allowed by the states as real marriages under federal law, which would be a welcome change for a lot of us. (Right now my husband and I file our income taxes as a married couple in California but as two single individuals for the Feds. It's a mess.)

Although I've thought a lot about gay marriage, I realize I haven't given enough thought to the possible consequences of a sweeping SCOTUS decision on the side of equality, à la Brown v. Board of Education or Roe v. Wade--in particular, the backlash effect and a re-energizing of the religious right. Discussions like the one in this thread and also in this article by a Georgetown law professor in today's NY Times are making me rethink my position. As the saying goes, be careful what you wish for . . .

I think SCOTUS is acutely aware of how fast public opionion on this is changing, and doesn't want to diminish their own authority. I think it's entirely possibly both the Prop 8 case and the DOMA case will be dismissed on procedural grounds.
Prop 8 will be dismissed as the Ca authorities refused to appeal the Appeals court decision to strike down Prop 8, thus if SCOTUS says those who brought the case have no standing, the Appeals case stands, (Kennedy said twice yesterday "why not just dismiss this case"). That way Prop 8 is gone, same-sex marriage stands in Ca, and the wider problem is evaded, and the states are left to deal with rapidly changing public opinion in their own ways. Bastions of Bible red necks, such as the South can come along a hundred years later, like they do in everything else. In DOMA they could also dismiss the "appeal" by the House, as the admin refused to defend it, thus DOMA also is not really settled , but the court side steps taking the heat. Roberts is acutlely aware of the way history will perceive his court and it just makes more sense to let others take the heat, and leave his court out of it, for now.

The Roberts court is very concerned with it's own historical mark and after the duel disaters or Gore v Bush and the truely insane ruling that money = speech they are like a deer in the headlights when it comes to big issues. Basicaly the justices all know (well at least a majority of them) that neither of these laws are constitutional. I have higher hopes for DOMA being removed because of Justice Kennedy, Federalism and states rights are his wheelhouse and thats the discussion over DOMA does the federal government have the power to invalidate state recognised marriages when it has always been up to the states to regulate marriage.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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27-03-2013, 10:29 AM
RE: Court decision on gay marriage would be good or bad?
I also ultimately, think this will be seen as a tempest in a teapot. More and more people are opting out of marrage at all, or doing so later. As a "life-long" bond, it's already a fallacy, as 50 % end in divorce. Maybe a "temp" solution for those who want to raise children will be found, and civil unions for the rest, if they want it ?? The real question is not about marriage, but about equlality. I actually think the societal change in this area has come about breathtakingly fast. 50 years ago, no one would even discuss this subject AT ALL.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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28-03-2013, 02:56 AM
RE: Court decision on gay marriage would be good or bad?
(27-03-2013 10:29 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I also ultimately, think this will be seen as a tempest in a teapot. More and more people are opting out of marrage at all, or doing so later. As a "life-long" bond, it's already a fallacy, as 50 % end in divorce. Maybe a "temp" solution for those who want to raise children will be found, and civil unions for the rest, if they want it ?? The real question is not about marriage, but about equlality. I actually think the societal change in this area has come about breathtakingly fast. 50 years ago, no one would even discuss this subject AT ALL.

True equality can only be achieved by taking the state out of the marriage business. If George and Martha Washington did not need a marriage license why should Adam and Steve need one?
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28-03-2013, 03:10 AM
RE: Court decision on gay marriage would be good or bad?
Except that marriage and the reasons people want marriage are *legal* protection.

State has to be involved because for example:
If you marry a foreigner, the foreigner gets the right to live in your country.
If you die, your spouse is the next of kin legally.
If you divorce, then both partners get some legal protection - one can't just run away with all the boodle because 'the house is in my name' etc.
Couples can get tax breaks etc.

Marriage as a ceremony is pretty pointless, but I think it has definite value as a legal thing.
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