Creationism/Evolution
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03-02-2014, 10:26 PM
RE: Creationism/Evolution
(03-02-2014 10:18 PM)Drich Wrote:  these jews went on a 40 year camping trip.. Meaning no perment structures in the friggen desert! Whole cities have been consumed by the sands of that desert heck at one point the sphinx was almost completely covered over.. What 'evidence' should their be after 4000 years? tent poles camp fire rings? OT Jew trail mix?

You appear to have missed the point of your own example:
the sphinx is still there.

The material evidence of hundreds of thousands of people and their associated goods, belongings, waste products, corpses, animals, etc does not simply vanish. There absolutely would be tent poles. Even supposing they never bothered building anything more substantial than tents for the entire four decades. Because, as it happens, deserts are great at preserving things like wood.

Look, the Sinai is small. It has been thoroughly explored. There is nothing there. Deal with it.

(03-02-2014 10:07 PM)Drich Wrote:  That's funny, because 25 years ago whan I was in grade school they did say that the Jews were Secifically named as slaves of eygpt..

Yeah. That's another thing we might call not true.

Evidently your school was more interested in religion than reality.

(03-02-2014 10:07 PM)Drich Wrote:  but now one man (Dr.Hawass) had singlehandly rewritten Egyptian History.. Look into Him. Literally This one guy has been given complete authority and autonomy over Egyptian history. Not saying his is on the take or has an axe to grind, but if he were then no one could say boo about it. till he died and the current regeim was replaced.

Sweet Jesus. He's not even dead.

Is there a single thing you said that was true?

(03-02-2014 10:07 PM)Drich Wrote:  Neither am I. That is why I ask a lot of questions and demand reference material for points made.

And yet your own bald-faced assertions needn't be substantiated by any external references or evidence whatsoever.

Funny, that.

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03-02-2014, 10:27 PM
RE: Creationism/Evolution
(03-02-2014 10:24 PM)Drich Wrote:  
(03-02-2014 10:16 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Let me get this straight.

You call it unfalsifiable. I grant this for the sake of argument, since you just said it. This is a trap, according to you?

I think you need to look up what 'trap' means.


Are you delusional?

The Biblical Exodus did not happen. The Flood story did not happen ten thousand times over.

Moreover, it is not my job to demonstrate that to you. If you are claiming that the Biblical narratives are true, it is up to you to substantiate that claim.

And if you use the Bible to prove the Bible says what the Bible says, then may God have mercy on your intellect.


The Flood. Abraham's camels. Bats are not birds. I've never found pretended ignorance an attractive posture.


Okay.

What would falsify it?

Since you are proposing this theory, you must present your falsifiability criteria. That is how legitimate inquiry works.


Rather, it's an entirely warranted methodology, since that is how we determine whether things are true.


Irrelevant.

If Adam lived 900 years he died around 3000 BC. There are furthermore dozens of other people who lived extraordinarily long lifespans.

Notwithstanding what I have already stated, that since subsequent events from the same narrative (the Flood, the Exodus) are not true, what possible reason is there to grant any credence to parts which are not as immediately falsifiable?


You first, champ.

You first.

(please tell me I don't have to explain 'burden of proof' to you?)

....and it looks like the 'thinking mind' has closed for business. If your not willing to participate in the thread and answer the points and questions I asked FIRST then there is nothing more I am willing to say. If and when you wish to continue this conversation simply pick up and answer the questions I asked. Provide the proof I requested and address the point I have made. otherwise maybe you'll have better luck the next time around. hey, maybe start an ark thread with some of your points that might be fun.

There is no serious Biblical scholar in the entire world that takes any of this literally. NOT ONE.

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03-02-2014, 10:27 PM
RE: Creationism/Evolution
(03-02-2014 08:37 PM)Drich Wrote:  Here is one I have been working on for a while. Evolutionist and creationist both hate it, so I guess I am on to something.

Very simply put, I point out their is no time line between the creation of man and the fall of man. I also point out that outside of details of creation itself everything mentioned, takes place in the Garden. Basically between the four rivers that define the garden, God created a picture of the world that would be consistent with the evolutionary progress of man at the time of the fall. Meaning God knew when Adam would fall into sin and knew He would have to expel Adam and Eve so He created the garden to reflect what the world would look like at the time of the fall. So when they left they could easily adapt and co mingle with 'monkey man.' (Or man who evolved from slime.)

Evolved man or "monkey man" is man without a soul, and In the Garden Man, was created in the image of God, that would be man with a soul. In essence That would leave room for whole complete fossil record that could not be previously reconciled scripturally. It also explains the city Cain moved to, and the wives and husbands the children of Adam and Eve took for themselves. (They intermingled with monkey man/woman and pass their gift of a soul onto their children. As per Hebrew tradition that a man's "contribution" to the reproductive process is to give the body a soul.)

Now I know the goto verse to disprove this is in Genesis 5:4 After he begot Seth, the days of Adam were eight hundred years; and he had sons and daughters. 5 So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died.

In the English it seems that Adam's total existence was 930 years. But when we look at the Hebrew the word that is translated "lived" is:Chay it means:1) to live, have life, remain alive, sustain life etc... (In short God gave Him "life"/Chay at the point of creation, and then per genesis3:3 the day they ate of the fruit from the tree of knoweledge they would die. Or rather their initial Chay would be gone.) So as per Gods warning Adam and Eve died that very day, or rather the life they were orginally given at the moment they were created ended when they ate the fruit. Upon explusion from the garden Adam and Eve were to 'live' out side the garden. this word 'live is also the same word used in the 930 years adam had "lived." This word in the Hebrew is: chayay. It means 'restored life.' So the 930 years Adam lived was the time he spent outside the garden or Chayay. Adam while He lived (Chay) in the garden was immortal and the bible does not say how long he lived there.

How do we know they were immortal in the Garden with God? because of Genesis 2:16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;

Amongest those trees was the tree of life. What did the tree of life do?

Genesis 3:22Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-- in short the reason Adam was cast out of the garden was to keep Him eating from the tree of Iife. If he had never eaten from this tree, there would have been no reason to make him leave.

So to recap:
God created Man and woman and placed them in the garden. They could have been there a day before eating the forbidden fruit or they could have been there the 900 million bazillion years the scientist believe it took to evolve. Why? because there is no recorded time time between: "In the beginning" and the fall of man. Only speculation because we can count the generations back 6000 or so years.

When in fact all we can really say is that man made in the image of God has been out of the Garden 6000 or so years. We know the Garden was a sanctuary, (Per Genesis 2 as it's creation was recorded seperatly than the rest of creation found in Genesis 1, and we know that God kept Man created in His image there for an undisclosed amount of time. This does not means the rest of the world did not have to evolve as the undeniable fossil record proves.

Something very important to note this is NOT "Gap theory" or Creation theory as made popular in the 17 century. Even though the empty term Gap Creation theory can apply, as far as I know this is something very new.

(This is creation gap theory:What is the "Gap Theory?" • ChristianAnswers.Net
In short between genesis 1:1 and 1:2 there is a whole nother version of creation story. The problem here is there is added or filler material between the two accounts. )

Why is it important to distance this theory from Gap creation theory?? Because it combines the unmolested Genesis account AS RECORDED IN THE BIBLE, with the evolutionary data we have discovered and can not other wise reconcile. Without Adding anything to scripture or taking anything away. This also explains several other creation "paradoxes" that atheist tend to use to disprove the genesis account.

I have only taken the face value account of (a literal 7 days of creation) Genesis and lined the holes up with the holes in the evolutionary account of origins and they fit together perfectly.

What do you think? I would like to refine and clean up this account of origins and start circulating it. Because there is literally nothing the atheist can say or do to disprove anything. Their standard goto the evidence only further supports the creation account at this point. This takes the account of "origins" out of the atheist arsenal for a legitmate reason they do not believe in God. While on the Atheist website because they saw the logic of this explanation many who originally greeted me with harsh words and complete disrespect started to ask legitimate questions.

If you like to see the actual discourse The website is atheist forums dot org. This place is not for the faint of heart there are little to no rules about what is said or seen there. It is under the religion/Christian category under drich "evolution."

Also I been wanting to make a short video on this and post it on YouTube. With your background in technology I think that would be possible if your interested. Also while I am thinking about it I would like to talk to you about revamping our company website if that is something you do.

There is no "creationism vs evolution". I think you mean "creationism vs science".

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03-02-2014, 10:28 PM
RE: Creationism/Evolution
(03-02-2014 10:23 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(03-02-2014 09:59 PM)Drich Wrote:  I litter my threads with stuff like this.

Your post are litter alright. Complete crap. You think you are SO fucking clever.

Do you mind if I call you buckster?

I've always want to know a 'buckster.'

Well, buckster, I have found that personal insult and general dismissal without addressing any actual topical content is often times of extream intelligence.. Or slight retardation.. Consider Maybe that was heavy retardation I can't remember, maybe you can help me out what do you think?
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03-02-2014, 10:29 PM
RE: Creationism/Evolution
(03-02-2014 10:27 PM)diddo97 Wrote:  
(03-02-2014 08:37 PM)Drich Wrote:  Here is one I have been working on for a while. Evolutionist and creationist both hate it, so I guess I am on to something.

Very simply put, I point out their is no time line between the creation of man and the fall of man. I also point out that outside of details of creation itself everything mentioned, takes place in the Garden. Basically between the four rivers that define the garden, God created a picture of the world that would be consistent with the evolutionary progress of man at the time of the fall. Meaning God knew when Adam would fall into sin and knew He would have to expel Adam and Eve so He created the garden to reflect what the world would look like at the time of the fall. So when they left they could easily adapt and co mingle with 'monkey man.' (Or man who evolved from slime.)

Evolved man or "monkey man" is man without a soul, and In the Garden Man, was created in the image of God, that would be man with a soul. In essence That would leave room for whole complete fossil record that could not be previously reconciled scripturally. It also explains the city Cain moved to, and the wives and husbands the children of Adam and Eve took for themselves. (They intermingled with monkey man/woman and pass their gift of a soul onto their children. As per Hebrew tradition that a man's "contribution" to the reproductive process is to give the body a soul.)

Now I know the goto verse to disprove this is in Genesis 5:4 After he begot Seth, the days of Adam were eight hundred years; and he had sons and daughters. 5 So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died.

In the English it seems that Adam's total existence was 930 years. But when we look at the Hebrew the word that is translated "lived" is:Chay it means:1) to live, have life, remain alive, sustain life etc... (In short God gave Him "life"/Chay at the point of creation, and then per genesis3:3 the day they ate of the fruit from the tree of knoweledge they would die. Or rather their initial Chay would be gone.) So as per Gods warning Adam and Eve died that very day, or rather the life they were orginally given at the moment they were created ended when they ate the fruit. Upon explusion from the garden Adam and Eve were to 'live' out side the garden. this word 'live is also the same word used in the 930 years adam had "lived." This word in the Hebrew is: chayay. It means 'restored life.' So the 930 years Adam lived was the time he spent outside the garden or Chayay. Adam while He lived (Chay) in the garden was immortal and the bible does not say how long he lived there.

How do we know they were immortal in the Garden with God? because of Genesis 2:16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;

Amongest those trees was the tree of life. What did the tree of life do?

Genesis 3:22Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-- in short the reason Adam was cast out of the garden was to keep Him eating from the tree of Iife. If he had never eaten from this tree, there would have been no reason to make him leave.

So to recap:
God created Man and woman and placed them in the garden. They could have been there a day before eating the forbidden fruit or they could have been there the 900 million bazillion years the scientist believe it took to evolve. Why? because there is no recorded time time between: "In the beginning" and the fall of man. Only speculation because we can count the generations back 6000 or so years.

When in fact all we can really say is that man made in the image of God has been out of the Garden 6000 or so years. We know the Garden was a sanctuary, (Per Genesis 2 as it's creation was recorded seperatly than the rest of creation found in Genesis 1, and we know that God kept Man created in His image there for an undisclosed amount of time. This does not means the rest of the world did not have to evolve as the undeniable fossil record proves.

Something very important to note this is NOT "Gap theory" or Creation theory as made popular in the 17 century. Even though the empty term Gap Creation theory can apply, as far as I know this is something very new.

(This is creation gap theory:What is the "Gap Theory?" • ChristianAnswers.Net
In short between genesis 1:1 and 1:2 there is a whole nother version of creation story. The problem here is there is added or filler material between the two accounts. )

Why is it important to distance this theory from Gap creation theory?? Because it combines the unmolested Genesis account AS RECORDED IN THE BIBLE, with the evolutionary data we have discovered and can not other wise reconcile. Without Adding anything to scripture or taking anything away. This also explains several other creation "paradoxes" that atheist tend to use to disprove the genesis account.

I have only taken the face value account of (a literal 7 days of creation) Genesis and lined the holes up with the holes in the evolutionary account of origins and they fit together perfectly.

What do you think? I would like to refine and clean up this account of origins and start circulating it. Because there is literally nothing the atheist can say or do to disprove anything. Their standard goto the evidence only further supports the creation account at this point. This takes the account of "origins" out of the atheist arsenal for a legitmate reason they do not believe in God. While on the Atheist website because they saw the logic of this explanation many who originally greeted me with harsh words and complete disrespect started to ask legitimate questions.

If you like to see the actual discourse The website is atheist forums dot org. This place is not for the faint of heart there are little to no rules about what is said or seen there. It is under the religion/Christian category under drich "evolution."

Also I been wanting to make a short video on this and post it on YouTube. With your background in technology I think that would be possible if your interested. Also while I am thinking about it I would like to talk to you about revamping our company website if that is something you do.

There is no "creationism vs evolution". I think you mean "creationism vs science".
why?
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03-02-2014, 10:30 PM
RE: Creationism/Evolution
(03-02-2014 10:24 PM)Drich Wrote:  ....and it looks like the 'thinking mind' has closed for business. If your not willing to participate in the thread and answer the points and questions I asked FIRST then there is nothing more I am willing to say. If and when you wish to continue this conversation simply pick up and answer the questions I asked. Provide the proof I requested and address the point I have made. otherwise maybe you'll have better luck the next time around. hey, maybe start an ark thread with some of your points that might be fun.

I guess I do have to explain what 'burden of proof' means. Oh, well.

You see, Drich, when someone makes a claim, it is not reasonable to accept it without evidence. That is the job of the person making the claim.

You are arguing from the Bible to prove that the Bible says what the Bible says. That could not possibly be more trivial and useless.

It is therefore not incumbent on me to demonstrate to you why something you claim is not true. It is incidentally possible to debunk the many outrageous claims in the Bible, and I did in fact give you the beginnings of such answers. You are not interested in those answers.

But, I guess it's kind of cute that you pretend to want to engage in a real discussion. I've certainly never seen that sort of disingenuous posturing before.

If you wish to be taken seriously and given the time of day you need to provide evidence for the things you claim.

A: "I say X".
B: "Prove it."
A: "NO U PROOF IT WRONG FIRST TROLOLOL"

Try harder.

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03-02-2014, 10:31 PM (This post was last modified: 03-02-2014 10:39 PM by Peebothuhul.)
RE: Creationism/Evolution
Edit: Ah, I see cjlr got there before me about things being left behind. No worries then. Smile

Um...okay...here we go.

A big, as in really BIG group of people. All wandering along at the slowest pace of their transport (As in walking old, wounded, pregnant etc) taking 40 years to cover the relatively small distance between Egypt and the promised land. (Including the wiping out of an ENTIRE Egyptian army plus a Pharaoh?)

This is going to leave traces. Broken pots, midden pits etc. Unless...the deity closed up all their backsides...y'know, so they wouldn't leave any traces?

It wasn't just a 'camping' trip. By your accounts it was effectively an entire societie's migration.

As for one fellow re-writing every one's books? Wow! That guy has some amazing clout to be able to tell people in Britain, America heck the rest of the world what's right and wrong. I don't think archeology works that way.

It still doesn't address the "There's nothing left of Eden" comment, either. Since, by your opening statements, Eden seems to have existed in the same spot for a very long time. Why hasn't it left a dent in the topography?

Besides...aren't you the side making the claim that certain things are true? So...um..aren't you the side supposedly presenting things?

Very much cheers to all.
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03-02-2014, 10:33 PM
RE: Creationism/Evolution
(03-02-2014 10:28 PM)Drich Wrote:  
(03-02-2014 10:23 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Your post are litter alright. Complete crap. You think you are SO fucking clever.

Do you mind if I call you buckster?

I've always want to know a 'buckster.'

Well, buckster, I have found that personal insult and general dismissal without addressing any actual topical content is often times of extream intelligence.. Or slight retardation.. Consider Maybe that was heavy retardation I can't remember, maybe you can help me out what do you think?

I think you are an uneducated moron, with absolutely NO real education in Biblical Studies, which your OP is proof of. You are obsessed with a literal interpretation, as you are too ignorant of ancient literature to know how to even begin to approach it, which is the common way street preachers go about their ignorant business. You are dismissed, and deserve nothing but insults. You are an ignoramus. You do your own cause no favors. Your ignorance is utterly profound. There is NOTHING in your OP that even approaches deserving an intelligent reply . If you turned that in where I go to school you would be expelled, and laughed out of town.

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Assistant Manager, Vice Detection, Whoville : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

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03-02-2014, 10:39 PM
RE: Creationism/Evolution
(03-02-2014 10:29 PM)Drich Wrote:  
(03-02-2014 10:27 PM)diddo97 Wrote:  There is no "creationism vs evolution". I think you mean "creationism vs science".
why?

Quick answer, "Because Evolution is already science...and Creationism is myth."

So "Creationism Vs Science" is probably a better/more factual kind of statement?
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03-02-2014, 10:41 PM
RE: Creationism/Evolution
(03-02-2014 09:17 PM)Drich Wrote:  To re cap the OP the basic theory is there is no time line between gen 2 (the end of a literal 7 day creation) and Gen 3. Meaning it could be a day month year 1000 year billion years or the 100 ballizion years science will eventually say was needed for evolution to happen... Adam and Eve could have remained in the Garden for that time. The 6000 years the genealogies point to only speak from Genesis 3 forward. (after the Fall.)

[Image: My+grandma+s+Cool+story+bro_e03cbf_3997646.png]


(03-02-2014 09:18 PM)Drich Wrote:  If you want evidence then why not take God up on His offer to provide it for anyone who Asks Seeks and Knocks as out lined in Luke 11?

Yeah, I did, and he never did create that planet between here and the moon to demonstrate his power.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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