Creationism in School
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
05-01-2012, 12:12 AM
RE: Creationism in School
(04-01-2012 11:57 PM)Ghost Wrote:  A lot of people talk about teaching the controversy. That seems silly to me because it's basically still about trying to get kids to accept one version and only one version as THE Truth. I think we should teach evolution in science class and Genesis in religion class. We should teach the truth. Group A believes X and group B believes Y. Fact. But to do that, both sides would have to accept that the other has the right to exist, which as of right now seems unlikely.

That is simply not true. Scientists are not running around trying to ensure that religion is not taught in religion courses.

The fact of the matter is that some xtians just want to attack evolution. It has very little to do with the teaching of genesis, because if it did they would advocate the addition of a religion course to the curriculum. However, they are not interested in that because a religion course would be required to teach all various religious myths, rather than just theirs.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-01-2012, 12:33 AM
RE: Creationism in School
You're right. They aren't doing that. Some are simply trying to block the teaching of creationism instead of evolution or along side evolution in the science class. But some are trying to ban creationism from curriculums all together.

I mean honestly, the notion that scientists are just innocent victims fighting to stay alive at the hands of the evil Theists is just fantasy. I don't see much evidence of either side negotiating a compromise. It's all been pretty zero sum so far.

Saying a religion course would have to teach everything is like saying a physics class would have to teach biology, chemistry, math... Like I said, specific regions have specific concerns. That's always been the way. In high school, I learned about the history of Quebec and Canada and the geography of Quebec and Canada, not of PEI and Canada, or Alberta and Canada, or Manitoba and Canada.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-01-2012, 08:28 AM
RE: Creationism in School
(04-01-2012 11:57 PM)Ghost Wrote:  A lot of people talk about teaching the controversy. That seems silly to me because it's basically still about trying to get kids to accept one version and only one version as THE Truth. I think we should teach evolution in science class and Genesis in religion class. We should teach the truth. Group A believes X and group B believes Y. Fact. But to do that, both sides would have to accept that the other has the right to exist, which as of right now seems unlikely.

"Teaching the controversy" was invented by the Christians. There is no scientific controversy.
Since ID/creationism as not a scientific theory, it does not belong in science class.

Quote:As far as which religious traditions should be taught, that's actually a no brainer. In Chicago, they aren't about to teach The Bhagavad Gita or the story of Zeus defeating the Titans for the same reason they aren't going to teach children Hindu or Ancient Greek. Cultural context plays a huge role in curriculum. End of story. If there's 80 million Evangelicals in the country, you teach that. Same reason I was taught French growing up.

The teaching of traditions has nothing to do with science class. Rational people want religiously-motivated ideas kept out of science class. What is taught in other courses is not the point.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-01-2012, 10:20 AM
RE: Creationism in School
When you look at this from a psychological point of view - it is a very clever idea to implement in schools. Firstly I recommend you all to read "Influence" by Robert B Cialdini because the following knowledge I gained from this book.

"We accept inner responsibility for a behaviour when we think we have chosen to perform it in the absence of strong outside pressures."

So from this, I learnt that when we decide to believe or do something that we know/feel we have chosen out of our own free will, then it will be something that we will 100% back.

"Our own need to be consistent will lead directly to their benefit."
So once we have chosen what to do/ believe, then we take it as our own responsibility to be its advocate, consistent in it. No one likes a hypocrite!

Usually religion "gets in there first" with its own creationism and knows the need for people of be consistent is to their benefit - they exploit it. So again, if we follow this idea about giving the children each explanation about the creation of the world and they use their own brains to determine which one is the most logical and truthful, then that is the most powerful way of teaching the big bang theory. So even if religion gets in there first with its venomous ways, we can inject some anti venom in the best way possible i.e. this person's excellent idea!

http://britishfemaleatheist.wordpress.com/

Quote:"Religion poisons everything." - Christopher Hitchens
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-01-2012, 11:29 AM
RE: Creationism in School
Teach scientific facts. Mythology is always an option also, if people are interested in myths.

Something, Or Someone Is Really Out There!
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-01-2012, 11:57 AM
RE: Creationism in School
Hey, Chaz.

I'm aware there's no scientific controversy, I'm a Darwinist. And I never advocated teaching religious creation stories in science class. In fact, you quoted me saying the exact opposite.

As far as your critique of my second quote, I was commenting on the notion that if we teach one creation story, we are necessarily obliged to teach all of them. But that's not how education works so it's a poor argument.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-01-2012, 12:45 PM
RE: Creationism in School
(05-01-2012 11:57 AM)Ghost Wrote:  I'm aware there's no scientific controversy, I'm a Darwinist. And I never advocated teaching religious creation stories in science class. In fact, you quoted me saying the exact opposite.

As far as your critique of my second quote, I was commenting on the notion that if we teach one creation story, we are necessarily obliged to teach all of them. But that's not how education works so it's a poor argument.

I didn't think you thought... I'm quite sure we're generally in agreement on this.
I was just clarifying for others that the "controversy" in "teach the controversy" is made up. I don't think I distorted the quote.

We should teach all the creation stories to take away the power of any one of them. But we don't do it in science class.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-01-2012, 09:23 AM
RE: Creationism in School
Hey, Chaz.

My understanding was never that they were saying that there was a controversy within evolution among biologists but rather that the controversy was that there were competing ideas; namely, Darwinism and Creationism. I always understood "teach the controversy" to mean teach the two ideas. I'm fine with that, I just thought that the attitude of teach the controversy was still about making kids choose the one single Truth. I mean, biologists have no reason to promote teach the controversy; however, for me, part of the problem is when biologists say that only evolution should be taught, not just in science class (it should be the only thing taught in science class because it's, well, science) but period.

One of the central axioms of my life is that there is no one right way to live. I'm less interested in a single big T Truth than I am about finding space for a diversity of truths to live amongst one another.

Quote:We should teach all the creation stories to take away the power of any one of them.

I have issue with this.

It seems like you're just interested in undermining one of the traditions; Creationism would I imagine. That's no way to build a curriculum and it's no way to build bridges between communities. It's a battle cry.

I think that students should be exposed to a wide range of ideas. Not just in religion, but across the board. The problem is that there are limits. No one would ever suggest teaching kids all 6 000 languages, or every culture's cuisine in home economics, or every musical instrument on the planet in music. It's as preposterous as it is unfeasible. All you can do is pick which religious traditions are relevant to your region and teach those, not to undermine any of them, but to educate children in a responsible manner. That's our responsibility to them. We don't have the right to use their minds as a battlefield.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-01-2012, 09:38 AM
RE: Creationism in School
(06-01-2012 09:23 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Chaz.

My understanding was never that they were saying that there was a controversy within evolution among biologists but rather that the controversy was that there were competing ideas; namely, Darwinism and Creationism. I always understood "teach the controversy" to mean teach the two ideas. I'm fine with that, I just thought that the attitude of teach the controversy was still about making kids choose the one single Truth. I mean, biologists have no reason to promote teach the controversy; however, for me, part of the problem is when biologists say that only evolution should be taught, not just in science class (it should be the only thing taught in science class because it's, well, science) but period.

My point is that the "controversy" only exists in the minds of anti-evolutionists.
For biologists, there is no controversy over the fact of evolution. I don't know of any biologists who say anything other than to just keep it out of science classes.

Quote:One of the central axioms of my life is that there is no one right way to live. I'm less interested in a single big T Truth than I am about finding space for a diversity of truths to live amongst one another.

Quote:We should teach all the creation stories to take away the power of any one of them.

I have issue with this.

It seems like you're just interested in undermining one of the traditions; Creationism would I imagine. That's no way to build a curriculum and it's no way to build bridges between communities. It's a battle cry.

Creation myths are part of history, religion, culture, etc. If the course is World History, then all kinds of creation myths should be shown. If the course is Western Civilization, then the pagan myths and the Christian myths, and so on.

A public school is not the place to teach myths as truth, especially not a single myth.
Exposing children to a wide range of ideas is precisely the way to build bridges.

Quote:I think that students should be exposed to a wide range of ideas. Not just in religion, but across the board. The problem is that there are limits. No one would ever suggest teaching kids all 6 000 languages, or every culture's cuisine in home economics, or every musical instrument on the planet in music. It's as preposterous as it is unfeasible. All you can do is pick which religious traditions are relevant to your region and teach those, not to undermine any of them, but to educate children in a responsible manner. That's our responsibility to them. We don't have the right to use their minds as a battlefield.

I agree that a wide range of ideas should be taught in the appropriate classes. Creation myths do not belong in science class.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-01-2012, 10:26 AM (This post was last modified: 06-01-2012 10:34 AM by CaluMew.)
RE: Creationism in School
(04-01-2012 12:13 PM)Science Believer Wrote:  I know everyone has their own point of view on this, and I'm going to guess that the majority of people on this site wish to keep Creationism out of our schools, but I came up with a great position on this subject matter.
Allow the teaching of the biblical account of creation in schools along side the theory of evolution. However, only teach them AFTER teaching the concept of Occam's Razor. Then, after teaching all three of these concepts, ask the students which makes more sense.
While this idea is laughable I am somewhat serious. Personally, I find that if two different ideas are presented by two different sources, children will just believe the source they trust more (which is usually their parents teaching Creationism). However, when different ideas are presented by the same source with the encouragement to use their own brains to determine the truth, not only do children come to the more logical conclusion, but they grow from the experience.
Opinions?

What would be the point, evolution is a fact and is correct!

There's no sugar coating it, it simply is and that's it. We shouldn't just lump creationism into schools because it appeals to people's opinion. Opinion is irrelevant and worthless. There is no more evidence to support creationism than the flying spaghetti monster. Just because creationism is a teaching or story doesn't give it weight in the classroom. Would you teach the story of Harry potter as fact merely because many people like it or think it to be a cool and well written set of books, no. Also take into account that creationism is a made up myth, meaning that the possibility of the story being created again in a new lifetime is highly unlikely. Contrasted with evolution which is a universal fact the possibility of humans discovering its laws and science in another lifetime is certain because it was not man made.

Evolution has evidence...A LOT of evidence and research has shown a number of fish species have accumulated legs in Indonesia...if that is not evolution then i'm not arrogant.

Evolution will make sense even when creationism is presented.

Religious? Oh...how unfortunate.

It's not that I don't like you or have a problem with you. It's just uncomfortable looking at that dying Jew on that cross, around your neck.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: