Creationist view of vestigial organs
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18-09-2014, 03:23 PM
RE: Creationist view of vestigial organs
(18-09-2014 03:05 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(18-09-2014 02:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  That is not the argument. Their argument is that evolution is not true because god. But they straw man evolution.


What belief would that be?


They already do.

One of us must misunderstand if you are saying evolution equals atheism? Most Christians are theistic evolutionists, no?

According to the following Pew poll data:

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/12/30/publi...evolution/

Yes, most Christians are theistic evolutionists (at least in America), although it varies widely by what type of Christian they are. However, in all groups of Christians, there are a significant percentage that do not accept evolution in any form. I think you would find that close to 100% of atheists accept evolution. "Evolution = atheism" isn't quite right, but you could certainly say that atheism very strongly implies a belief in/acceptance of evolution. And you can't say that about Christianity.
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18-09-2014, 03:37 PM
RE: Creationist view of vestigial organs
(18-09-2014 03:05 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(18-09-2014 02:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  That is not the argument. Their argument is that evolution is not true because god. But they straw man evolution.

One of us must misunderstand if you are saying evolution equals atheism? Most Christians are theistic evolutionists, no?

This thread concerns creationist attitudes about evolution, so I am not equating them.
I am pointing out that we call them ignorant when they make absurd statements about something they don't even understand.

If it is true that a majority of Christians believe in evolution, it is a slim majority.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-09-2014, 06:28 PM
RE: Creationist view of vestigial organs
(18-09-2014 03:05 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  One of us must misunderstand if you are saying evolution equals atheism? Most Christians are theistic evolutionists, no?

Hahahaha hahahahaha!


....oh you were serious?

Not in my experience, buddy.

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18-09-2014, 09:17 PM
RE: Creationist view of vestigial organs
(18-09-2014 03:05 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(18-09-2014 02:18 PM)Chas Wrote:  That is not the argument. Their argument is that evolution is not true because god. But they straw man evolution.


What belief would that be?


They already do.

One of us must misunderstand if you are saying evolution equals atheism? Most Christians are theistic evolutionists, no?

So we agree then... these people, the ones making the vestigial organs argument, are idiots.
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19-09-2014, 08:39 AM
RE: Creationist view of vestigial organs
(18-09-2014 06:28 PM)Colourcraze Wrote:  
(18-09-2014 03:05 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  One of us must misunderstand if you are saying evolution equals atheism? Most Christians are theistic evolutionists, no?

Hahahaha hahahahaha!


....oh you were serious?

Not in my experience, buddy.

Actually, the data I posted yesterday (just a few posts up from this one) support his statement. Think about it. There are only three basic positions:

(1) The scientific theory of evolution is correct, and God had nothing to do with it.

(2) The scientific theory of evolution is correct, but the process was initiated and guided by God.

(3) The theory of evolution is incorrect. Creation happened as described by the Bible.

#1 is the default position for atheists, but is not a live option for theists. So a Christian is limited to either #2 or #3. Only fanatic fundamentalists (a minority of Christians) believe #3. Any Christian who is at all reasonable would go with #2. #2 is theistic evolution. Therefore, most Christians are theistic evolutionists. This makes perfect sense to me, and the Pew poll data tend to support it.
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19-09-2014, 09:49 AM
RE: Creationist view of vestigial organs
(18-09-2014 09:17 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(18-09-2014 03:05 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  One of us must misunderstand if you are saying evolution equals atheism? Most Christians are theistic evolutionists, no?

So we agree then... these people, the ones making the vestigial organs argument, are idiots.

Do we? A century ago, humans were thought to have over 100 vestigial organs, now, it's what, three? Have you heard any arguments that removing the appendix causes possible digestive issues and that it does have a function, as do certain teeth in our mouth, etc.? But it would be petty to argue evolution based on a few organs, surely?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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19-09-2014, 12:28 PM
RE: Creationist view of vestigial organs
(19-09-2014 09:49 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(18-09-2014 09:17 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  So we agree then... these people, the ones making the vestigial organs argument, are idiots.

Do we? A century ago, humans were thought to have over 100 vestigial organs, now, it's what, three?

That requires a citation. Drinking Beverage

Quote:Have you heard any arguments that removing the appendix causes possible digestive issues and that it does have a function, as do certain teeth in our mouth, etc.? But it would be petty to argue evolution based on a few organs, surely?

'Vestigial' does not mean without any function.

"vestigial refers to an organ or part (for example, the human appendix) which is greatly reduced from the original ancestral form and is no longer functional or is of reduced or altered function. "

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19-09-2014, 04:14 PM
RE: Creationist view of vestigial organs
(19-09-2014 08:39 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(18-09-2014 06:28 PM)Colourcraze Wrote:  Hahahaha hahahahaha!


....oh you were serious?

Not in my experience, buddy.

Actually, the data I posted yesterday (just a few posts up from this one) support his statement. Think about it. There are only three basic positions:

(1) The scientific theory of evolution is correct, and God had nothing to do with it.

(2) The scientific theory of evolution is correct, but the process was initiated and guided by God.

(3) The theory of evolution is incorrect. Creation happened as described by the Bible.

#1 is the default position for atheists, but is not a live option for theists. So a Christian is limited to either #2 or #3. Only fanatic fundamentalists (a minority of Christians) believe #3. Any Christian who is at all reasonable would go with #2. #2 is theistic evolution. Therefore, most Christians are theistic evolutionists. This makes perfect sense to me, and the Pew poll data tend to support it.

That's cool. My experience is with fundamentalists in the Deep South, so my data is different.

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19-09-2014, 06:36 PM
RE: Creationist view of vestigial organs
(19-09-2014 09:49 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Do we? A century ago, humans were thought to have over 100 vestigial organs, now, it's what, three? Have you heard any arguments that removing the appendix causes possible digestive issues and that it does have a function, as do certain teeth in our mouth, etc.? But it would be petty to argue evolution based on a few organs, surely?

Partial list of human vestigial organs -

coccyx

Wisdom teeth

Vomeronasal organ

Various muscles around the ear, which in the other primates moves the ear. Why do have muscles that serve no purpose?

plica semilunaris in the corner of the eye. Remnants of a nictitating membrane that we no longer have.

Formation of goose bumps. A remnant of when our ancestors were covered in hair. Made us look bigger when threatened. What purpose now?

At one point during fetus development, an egg sack develops. Yes, we still have vestigial DNA for creating egg sacks that is identical to the DNA in animals that still use egg sacks.

Fetuses are covered by hair during a point in their development. The hair falls off before birth. We have vestigial DNA for growing hair on our entire bodies. Then it is deactivated.


This is just a partial list, leaving out the appendix. A bit more than 3 huh?

Quote: as do certain teeth in our mouth

People used to die in agonizing pain with infection due to impacted wisdom teeth. Removing them causes no negative effects at all. All because we are born with vestigial DNA to create too many teeth for the size of our, more recently evolved, smaller jaw.

Quote:But it would be petty to argue evolution based on a few organs, surely?

Good thing there are mountains of other evidence for evolution than just vestigial organs then, right?
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19-09-2014, 08:01 PM
RE: Creationist view of vestigial organs
(19-09-2014 09:49 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(18-09-2014 09:17 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  So we agree then... these people, the ones making the vestigial organs argument, are idiots.

Do we? A century ago, humans were thought to have over 100 vestigial organs, now, it's what, three? Have you heard any arguments that removing the appendix causes possible digestive issues and that it does have a function, as do certain teeth in our mouth, etc.? But it would be petty to argue evolution based on a few organs, surely?

I fail to see your point. You believe in evolution, I believe in evolution. Human beings lacking vestigial organs does not prove or disprove evolution. Its a stupid argument made by people who do not understand evolution.
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