Creationist webpage: "ape-ancestry myth"
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18-08-2015, 01:31 PM (This post was last modified: 18-08-2015 01:42 PM by Learner.)
Creationist webpage: "ape-ancestry myth"
I've recently been reading more trying to understand human evolution over the last 6 million years or so, and learning more about the various fossil evidence. (When I was a Christian, I believed in young-earth creationism. Since I've deconverted, I've been reading many books about evolution and learned a lot.) I was looking up graphs today showing the timetable for various human and related fossils that have been found tracing our lineage as humans. I came across some creationist's personal webpage where he has an article trying to poke holes in the mainstream view of human evolution (and, as is typical of creationists, all it seems he does is poke holes rather than present an alternate scientific theory of origins):

http://davidpratt.info/ape1.htm

I know there are many on this board far more knowledgeable than I and who like to tear lame arguments to shreds. Just curious for others' thoughts on this article as I'm pretty new to studying this topic and as I formulate some of my own thoughts from the reading I've done. Any help you could offer would be helpful as I learn more about human evolution. Thank you!
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18-08-2015, 01:39 PM
RE: Creationist webpage: "ape-ancestry myth"
(18-08-2015 01:31 PM)Learner Wrote:  I've recently been reading more trying to understand human evolution over the last 2 million years or so, and learning more about the various fossil evidence. (When I was a Christian, I believed in young-earth creationism. Since I've deconverted, I've been reading many books about evolution and learned a lot.) I was looking up graphs today showing the timetable for various human and related fossils that have been found tracing our lineage as humans. I came across some creationist's personal webpage where he has an article trying to poke holes in the mainstream view of human evolution (and, as is typical of creationists, all it seems he does is poke holes rather than present an alternate scientific theory of origins):

http://davidpratt.info/ape1.htm

I know there are many on this board far more knowledgeable than I and who like to tear lame arguments to shreds. Just curious for others' thoughts on this article as I'm pretty new to studying this topic and as I formulate some of my own thoughts from the reading I've done. Any help you could offer would be helpful as I learn more about human evolution. Thank you!

The answer to nonsense is facts.
Before confronting crap like that you will need to learn some evolutionary theory.

You could start here, for instance.

Then you would be able to see the mistakes, misinformation, and fallacies presented by that guy.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-08-2015, 02:10 PM
RE: Creationist webpage: "ape-ancestry myth"
Quote:New types of creatures ‘evolve’ first on the ethereal or astral plane, based on past evolutionary forms stored in the memory of nature. Instead of an evolutionary process ‘guided’ by blind chance, as in the Darwinist scheme, and instead of new kinds of creatures being created out of nothing by a single supreme being or ‘God’, as in the creationist scheme, theosophy postulates an all-pervasive instinctive intelligence, arising from the workings of a hierarchy of agencies, from higher intelligences to elemental nature-forces, including soul-impulses from within each organism, reflecting its own evolutionary needs.

Theosophy says that the present earth is the reembodiment of a former earth, and the different classes or kingdoms of monads now evolving on it and forming it – from submineral (elemental) to superhuman – are pursuing an evolutionary journey that has no absolute beginning and will have no absolute end. The present earth and its life forms originated in a highly ethereal condition and gradually materialized and condensed during the ‘descending arc’ of the earth’s evolution, which lasted until the midpoint of the earth’s lifespan, some 4.5 million years ago, in the middle of the current, fourth round of evolutionary activity. Since then the ascending arc of etherealization and spiritualization has begun.

During each of the seven rounds, the various kingdoms of monads, or life-waves, pass successively through the 12 globes of the earth’s planetary chain; our own globe is the lowest and densest, while the others are located on higher, more ethereal planes. The first root-race, or humanity, in the current round began to develop in the mid-Palaeozoic; these early protohuman forms were huge, ovoid, semi-astral, nonselfconscious beings, which slowly materialized, declined in size, and assumed the present human shape during the ensuring millions of years.

er... this guy lives in fantasy land

Quote:The late second and early third races could conceivably have left fossils, and this is even more true of the more solidified bodies of the later third race and the fourth race.2 However, the fossil record is extremely fragmentary; for instance, it is estimated that it provides us with evidence for only about 3% of all the primate species that have ever existed.3 There are various reasons for this. First, fossilization can occur only under exceptional conditions. Second, erosion and geological cataclysms have destroyed 90 to 99% of the fossil record. Third, many fossils are buried in inaccessible places, including deep below the present ocean floors (the Lemurian continental system was centred in the Pacific Ocean, and the Atlantean continental system in the Atlantic Ocean4). Finally, cremation is said to have been widespread among humans until about 100,000 years ago.

Elsewhere he uses the scant fossil record to argue that gradual evolution is impossible, here it conveniently explains why not a single fossil of his postulated gigantic ovoid humans has been found. Facepalm

He's put sooooooo much work into this drivel Sad What a waste.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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18-08-2015, 02:20 PM
RE: Creationist webpage: "ape-ancestry myth"
I watched a really good lecture awhile back. I think it was Richard Carrier? I'll see if I can find it for you.
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18-08-2015, 02:23 PM
RE: Creationist webpage: "ape-ancestry myth"
I think this was it...



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18-08-2015, 02:26 PM (This post was last modified: 18-08-2015 02:32 PM by Learner.)
RE: Creationist webpage: "ape-ancestry myth"
(18-08-2015 02:10 PM)morondog Wrote:  
Quote:New types of creatures ‘evolve’ first on the ethereal or astral plane, based on past evolutionary forms stored in the memory of nature. Instead of an evolutionary process ‘guided’ by blind chance, as in the Darwinist scheme, and instead of new kinds of creatures being created out of nothing by a single supreme being or ‘God’, as in the creationist scheme, theosophy postulates an all-pervasive instinctive intelligence, arising from the workings of a hierarchy of agencies, from higher intelligences to elemental nature-forces, including soul-impulses from within each organism, reflecting its own evolutionary needs.

Theosophy says that the present earth is the reembodiment of a former earth, and the different classes or kingdoms of monads now evolving on it and forming it – from submineral (elemental) to superhuman – are pursuing an evolutionary journey that has no absolute beginning and will have no absolute end. The present earth and its life forms originated in a highly ethereal condition and gradually materialized and condensed during the ‘descending arc’ of the earth’s evolution, which lasted until the midpoint of the earth’s lifespan, some 4.5 million years ago, in the middle of the current, fourth round of evolutionary activity. Since then the ascending arc of etherealization and spiritualization has begun.

During each of the seven rounds, the various kingdoms of monads, or life-waves, pass successively through the 12 globes of the earth’s planetary chain; our own globe is the lowest and densest, while the others are located on higher, more ethereal planes. The first root-race, or humanity, in the current round began to develop in the mid-Palaeozoic; these early protohuman forms were huge, ovoid, semi-astral, nonselfconscious beings, which slowly materialized, declined in size, and assumed the present human shape during the ensuring millions of years.

er... this guy lives in fantasy land

Quote:The late second and early third races could conceivably have left fossils, and this is even more true of the more solidified bodies of the later third race and the fourth race.2 However, the fossil record is extremely fragmentary; for instance, it is estimated that it provides us with evidence for only about 3% of all the primate species that have ever existed.3 There are various reasons for this. First, fossilization can occur only under exceptional conditions. Second, erosion and geological cataclysms have destroyed 90 to 99% of the fossil record. Third, many fossils are buried in inaccessible places, including deep below the present ocean floors (the Lemurian continental system was centred in the Pacific Ocean, and the Atlantean continental system in the Atlantic Ocean4). Finally, cremation is said to have been widespread among humans until about 100,000 years ago.

Elsewhere he uses the scant fossil record to argue that gradual evolution is impossible, here it conveniently explains why not a single fossil of his postulated gigantic ovoid humans has been found. Facepalm

He's put sooooooo much work into this drivel Sad What a waste.

Wow, you weren't kidding - that guy does live in fantasy land! What drivel. I didn't even see this utter stupidity yet since it's on a different page. Wow. Having not read all his webpage, now I feel dumb posting the webpage link since some of the stuff is so ridiculous on that page. Thanks for pointing that out. When I post a link for others' comments, when the page is long, I post it early before I read everything to get comments of what others think to help my thinking in different sections of reading the thing. But, I think I'll take a lesson-learned here to (in the future) read a whole webpage, provide all my thoughts, and then ask for other input. Lesson learned.
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18-08-2015, 02:58 PM
RE: Creationist webpage: "ape-ancestry myth"
There's too much bullshit in the article, and me without my hip-waders. Maybe if I'm bored when I get home ....
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18-08-2015, 03:11 PM
RE: Creationist webpage: "ape-ancestry myth"
Thump, I'm with you... I don't even know where to start.

Learner - Try a book, an actual book, on the subject. There's just no substitute for the ability to hold it in your hands, mark pages, make notes, etc.

A few good options are:

The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution by Richard Dawkins

Your Inner Fish: A Journey into the 3.5-Billion-Year History of the Human Body by Neil Shubin

or, if you're specifically interested in human evolution "from" apes, I recommend:

Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors by Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan

Ancestors in Our Genome: The New Science of Human Evolution by Eugene E. Harris

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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18-08-2015, 03:20 PM
RE: Creationist webpage: "ape-ancestry myth"
(18-08-2015 02:10 PM)morondog Wrote:  
Quote:New types of creatures ‘evolve’ first on the ethereal or astral plane, based on past evolutionary forms stored in the memory of nature. Instead of an evolutionary process ‘guided’ by blind chance, as in the Darwinist scheme, and instead of new kinds of creatures being created out of nothing by a single supreme being or ‘God’, as in the creationist scheme, theosophy postulates an all-pervasive instinctive intelligence, arising from the workings of a hierarchy of agencies, from higher intelligences to elemental nature-forces, including soul-impulses from within each organism, reflecting its own evolutionary needs.

Theosophy says that the present earth is the reembodiment of a former earth, and the different classes or kingdoms of monads now evolving on it and forming it – from submineral (elemental) to superhuman – are pursuing an evolutionary journey that has no absolute beginning and will have no absolute end. The present earth and its life forms originated in a highly ethereal condition and gradually materialized and condensed during the ‘descending arc’ of the earth’s evolution, which lasted until the midpoint of the earth’s lifespan, some 4.5 million years ago, in the middle of the current, fourth round of evolutionary activity. Since then the ascending arc of etherealization and spiritualization has begun.

During each of the seven rounds, the various kingdoms of monads, or life-waves, pass successively through the 12 globes of the earth’s planetary chain; our own globe is the lowest and densest, while the others are located on higher, more ethereal planes. The first root-race, or humanity, in the current round began to develop in the mid-Palaeozoic; these early protohuman forms were huge, ovoid, semi-astral, nonselfconscious beings, which slowly materialized, declined in size, and assumed the present human shape during the ensuring millions of years.

er... this guy lives in fantasy land

Quote:The late second and early third races could conceivably have left fossils, and this is even more true of the more solidified bodies of the later third race and the fourth race.2 However, the fossil record is extremely fragmentary; for instance, it is estimated that it provides us with evidence for only about 3% of all the primate species that have ever existed.3 There are various reasons for this. First, fossilization can occur only under exceptional conditions. Second, erosion and geological cataclysms have destroyed 90 to 99% of the fossil record. Third, many fossils are buried in inaccessible places, including deep below the present ocean floors (the Lemurian continental system was centred in the Pacific Ocean, and the Atlantean continental system in the Atlantic Ocean4). Finally, cremation is said to have been widespread among humans until about 100,000 years ago.

Elsewhere he uses the scant fossil record to argue that gradual evolution is impossible, here it conveniently explains why not a single fossil of his postulated gigantic ovoid humans has been found. Facepalm

He's put sooooooo much work into this drivel Sad What a waste.

I knew the Herculoids were on to something! Gleep and Gloop were our ancestors!

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18-08-2015, 03:37 PM
RE: Creationist webpage: "ape-ancestry myth"
(18-08-2015 02:26 PM)Learner Wrote:  Wow, you weren't kidding - that guy does live in fantasy land! What drivel. I didn't even see this utter stupidity yet since it's on a different page. Wow. Having not read all his webpage, now I feel dumb posting the webpage link since some of the stuff is so ridiculous on that page. Thanks for pointing that out. When I post a link for others' comments, when the page is long, I post it early before I read everything to get comments of what others think to help my thinking in different sections of reading the thing. But, I think I'll take a lesson-learned here to (in the future) read a whole webpage, provide all my thoughts, and then ask for other input. Lesson learned.

Whenever I see something like this I look for the woo. I noticed he'd talked about theosophy elsewhere in his article, so then I saw there was a link to a section of the website about it, and that was the first few sentences. There's no need to get deep into fiddly debunkery of fiddly concepts of evolution when you can find a few good solid totally fucking loony ideas to demonstrate that your boy is definitely a few cards short of a full deck. I was honestly surprised. His article looked well written (if written with an agenda) with links and references and the works. Not a scientific paper but a good fake, if I can put it that way. Including the section with explicit quotes of the full-scale madness that he proposes to replace evolution theory with kinda... destroys the credibility of the rest of his website rather neatly. I think it does demonstrate that he's not consciously a scam artist though. He takes this stuff very very seriously.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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