Crime, guilt and free will
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09-12-2015, 03:07 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
I didn't say that only the feeling is the consequence. I said that hungry orphan gets relief. My action stops his suffering/hunger and he feels happy. This is the only consequence.
If I don't feed hungry orphan but I can, then I am accountable for his suffering.
If I teach an orphan to become a murderer or if I force him to murder someone, then I am also accountable for his choice.
If an orphan chose to murder someone in the future it has nothing to do with my choice to be kind to him and to teach him love and kindness.


ClydeLee Wrote:Your view and angle makes all human choices amoral, because no human knows or understands the consequences of an action.
Not true. We know consequences of many actions. We have enough experience for that. You know that if you touch the fire you will feel pain and burn your fingers.
But there are many actions that we can not predict the consequences. This is why we(LDS) have our God Heavenly Father and God the Holy Ghost.
Father tells us about consequences of certain choices. The Holy Ghost also teaches us about some personal choices and consequences.
This way we know and we don't make mistakes if we choose to follow council of Gods.

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09-12-2015, 03:13 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
A mother has a child. Right and moral choice is to be good mother: to take care of this child, to teach him to love others, to be kind and honest, etc.
If her child became a murderer in the future she is not accountable. It doesn't make her choice to be a good mother immoral or wrong.

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09-12-2015, 03:23 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(09-12-2015 03:13 PM)Alla Wrote:  A mother has a child. Right and moral choice is to be good mother: to take care of this child, to teach him to love others, to be kind and honest, etc.
If her child became a murderer in the future she is not accountable. It doesn't make her choice to be a good mother immoral or wrong.

I still don't parse why you think choice matters more than action.

You just keep saying this is the case, not even that god or lds says it, you just keep reverting to it though. Though for your actions, you don't know what the consequence will actually be for anything, through a undeveloped view of say the butterfly effect, you are unaware of the outcomes of touching your hand to the hot stove or not. You know that you will feel the heat upon your hand but you don't know what else may change or come of that single action, which could be a multitude of things for every situation.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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09-12-2015, 04:14 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(09-12-2015 01:45 PM)Alla Wrote:  
TheInquisition Wrote:The moral choice of whomever is irrelevant, the person's inability to predict the future and thereby not have full knowledge is.
Moral choices are not about predicting future. Moral choices are about doing right and wrong.
TheInquisition Wrote:Therefore this god cannot hold anyone accountable.
Wrong. Those who know what they are doing (wrong) are accountable. Unless they repent. Sincere repentance brings forgiveness.
Sincere repentance is 5 steps:
1. To recognize that what I did was wrong/evil/sin
2. To confess to God and to the person against whom I sinned.
3. To say "sorry" and to ask for forgiveness.
4. Restitution. If I lied I have to say the truth. If I stole I have to give back
5. To promise never do it again.

You don't repent if you have no knowledge of what effect your actions will have in the future. So this god concept holds people with incomplete or no knowledge accountable?

BTW- every time you spout Mormon doctrine you're lying, you have much to repent for.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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09-12-2015, 04:16 PM (This post was last modified: 09-12-2015 04:23 PM by TheInquisition.)
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(09-12-2015 03:07 PM)Alla Wrote:  I didn't say that only the feeling is the consequence. I said that hungry orphan gets relief. My action stops his suffering/hunger and he feels happy. This is the only consequence.
If I don't feed hungry orphan but I can, then I am accountable for his suffering.
If I teach an orphan to become a murderer or if I force him to murder someone, then I am also accountable for his choice.
If an orphan chose to murder someone in the future it has nothing to do with my choice to be kind to him and to teach him love and kindness.


ClydeLee Wrote:Your view and angle makes all human choices amoral, because no human knows or understands the consequences of an action.
Not true. We know consequences of many actions. We have enough experience for that. You know that if you touch the fire you will feel pain and burn your fingers.
But there are many actions that we can not predict the consequences. This is why we(LDS) have our God Heavenly Father and God the Holy Ghost.
Father tells us about consequences of certain choices. The Holy Ghost also teaches us about some personal choices and consequences.
This way we know and we don't make mistakes if we choose to follow council of Gods.
Oh yes, your cop-out answer the Holy Ghost! So tell me about these Mormon leaders:

John D. Lee, John M. Higbee, William H. Dame, Philip Klingensmith, William C. Stewart, Elliot Willden, Samuel Jukes, and George Adair, Jr.

Did they listen to the "Holy Ghost"?

I'm particularly interested on your thoughts on the "apostle" George A Smith.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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09-12-2015, 07:42 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
TheInquisition Wrote:You don't repent if you have no knowledge of what effect your actions will have in the future.
I agree. I don't even argue with this.
I am saying that moral choices are not about predicting the future. My moral choices have nothing to do with other people moral choices.
TheInquisition Wrote:BTW- every time you spout Mormon doctrine you're lying, you have much to repent for.
Give me an example, so I will understand what I have to repent about.

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09-12-2015, 07:50 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
TheInquisition Wrote:Oh yes, your cop-out answer the Holy Ghost! So tell me about these Mormon leaders:

John D. Lee, John M. Higbee, William H. Dame, Philip Klingensmith, William C. Stewart, Elliot Willden, Samuel Jukes, and George Adair, Jr.

Did they listen to the "Holy Ghost"?

Nobody is perfect. I assume that there were times they listened, there were times they didn't.
TheInquisition Wrote:I'm particularly interested on your thoughts on the "apostle" George A Smith.
I don't too much thoughts about him. I assume he was good but not perfect man.

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09-12-2015, 07:56 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(08-12-2015 08:21 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(08-12-2015 07:57 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I would never presume to teach you something about Mormons. I'm digging your experience of the LSD. Thumbsup




FIXED

Brilliant! Thumbsup

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09-12-2015, 07:59 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
CLYDELEE:
I still don't parse why you think choice matters more than action.
ALLA:
Choice is an action.

CLYDELEE:
You just keep saying this is the case, not even that god or lds says it, you just keep reverting to it though. Though for your actions, you don't know what the consequence will actually be for anything, through a undeveloped view of say the butterfly effect, you are unaware of the outcomes of touching your hand to the hot stove or not. You know that you will feel the heat upon your hand but you don't know what else may change or come of that single action, which could be a multitude of things for every situation.
ALLA:
I don't have to know consequences to know if my choice(action) is right or wrong.
I know that to show compassion is right choice no matter what consequences are.
I know that to be kind is right choice no matter what consequences are.
I know that to save life is right choice no matter what consequences are.
I know that to tell the truth is right choice no matter what consequences are.
I know that to do will of God is right choice no matter what consequences are
I know that to lie to save innocent life is right choice no matter what consequences are.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
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09-12-2015, 08:08 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(09-12-2015 07:42 PM)Alla Wrote:  Give me an example, so I will understand what I have to repent about.

Being annoying?

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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