Crime, guilt and free will
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10-12-2015, 12:18 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
TheInquisition
Your attempts to deflect will not work. You admit that George A Smith was preparing people for war and then you defend the Mountain Meadows Massacre?
Alla
I don't defend it. You assume I do. But you are wrong. I don't mind you being wrong. We all assume wrong things very often.
There is nothing evil in being prepared for hard times. It is wise to be prepared. It is wise to be prepared for the war. Only fools do not do this.

TheInquisition
You're so "filled with the Spirit" that you defend mass murder.
Alla
Again, you assume wrong things. Show me a quote where G.A. Smith said that Spirit told him to murder people. But of course, you can't do this. If you could you would show me the quote already.
I am not interested in your opinions about G.A. Smith. Because you know nothing.

English is my second language.
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10-12-2015, 12:21 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
TheInquisition
You're so "filled with the Spirit" that you defend mass murder.

Alla
This is your claim. Show, please, where I claim that.
Oh, you can't.

English is my second language.
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SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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10-12-2015, 12:48 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(10-12-2015 12:18 PM)Alla Wrote:  TheInquisition
Your attempts to deflect will not work. You admit that George A Smith was preparing people for war and then you defend the Mountain Meadows Massacre?
Alla
I don't defend it. You assume I do. But you are wrong. I don't mind you being wrong. We all assume wrong things very often.
There is nothing evil in being prepared for hard times. It is wise to be prepared. It is wise to be prepared for the war. Only fools do not do this.

TheInquisition
You're so "filled with the Spirit" that you defend mass murder.
Alla
Again, you assume wrong things. Show me a quote where G.A. Smith said that Spirit told him to murder people. But of course, you can't do this. If you could you would show me the quote already.
I am not interested in your opinions about G.A. Smith. Because you know nothing.

Here's a typical example of what George A White was preaching from Liberty and Persecution—Conduct of the U. S. Government, Etc George A. Smith

Quote: There is one item of history which I have observed among this people. The very men who were the murderers of our fathers, and our brothers, the burners of our houses, have come here

among this people since that time, where they have received protection; they have been fed when they were hungry. The very man who burned the house of Elder Moses Clawson, at Lima, came to him and said, “Mr. Clawson, I want to get some provisions from you.” Now, these very persecutors knew that our religion was true, and that we were men of sterling integrity, or else they never would have thrown themselves in our way, and called upon us for aid afterwards; and I am proud to say, that kind aid and assistance on their journey to the gold mines, have been extended to hundreds of these robbers, and thus coals of fire have been heaped upon their heads; but their skulls were so thick, it never burned many of them a bit.

That is hate, but of course you'll wave it away. Again, where was this alleged "spirit" when he spoke such words? In full agreement? Yes.....

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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10-12-2015, 12:51 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(10-12-2015 12:21 PM)Alla Wrote:  TheInquisition
You're so "filled with the Spirit" that you defend mass murder.

Alla
This is your claim. Show, please, where I claim that.
Oh, you can't.
Quote:Spirit teaches me: if someone wants to attack you and to kill you - do all you can to defend yourself.

This is exactly the rationale they used to rationalize the Mountain Meadow Massacre.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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10-12-2015, 12:57 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(10-12-2015 12:51 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(10-12-2015 12:21 PM)Alla Wrote:  TheInquisition
You're so "filled with the Spirit" that you defend mass murder.

Alla
This is your claim. Show, please, where I claim that.
Oh, you can't.
Quote:Spirit teaches me: if someone wants to attack you and to kill you - do all you can to defend yourself.

This is exactly the rationale they used to rationalize the Mountain Meadow Massacre.
But they didn't claim that Spirit told them to murder those particular people.
There is no justification for their actions.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
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10-12-2015, 01:04 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
......

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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10-12-2015, 01:13 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(10-12-2015 12:48 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(10-12-2015 12:18 PM)Alla Wrote:  TheInquisition
Your attempts to deflect will not work. You admit that George A Smith was preparing people for war and then you defend the Mountain Meadows Massacre?
Alla
I don't defend it. You assume I do. But you are wrong. I don't mind you being wrong. We all assume wrong things very often.
There is nothing evil in being prepared for hard times. It is wise to be prepared. It is wise to be prepared for the war. Only fools do not do this.

TheInquisition
You're so "filled with the Spirit" that you defend mass murder.
Alla
Again, you assume wrong things. Show me a quote where G.A. Smith said that Spirit told him to murder people. But of course, you can't do this. If you could you would show me the quote already.
I am not interested in your opinions about G.A. Smith. Because you know nothing.

Here's a typical example of what George A White was preaching from Liberty and Persecution—Conduct of the U. S. Government, Etc George A. Smith

Quote: There is one item of history which I have observed among this people. The very men who were the murderers of our fathers, and our brothers, the burners of our houses, have come here

among this people since that time, where they have received protection; they have been fed when they were hungry. The very man who burned the house of Elder Moses Clawson, at Lima, came to him and said, “Mr. Clawson, I want to get some provisions from you.” Now, these very persecutors knew that our religion was true, and that we were men of sterling integrity, or else they never would have thrown themselves in our way, and called upon us for aid afterwards; and I am proud to say, that kind aid and assistance on their journey to the gold mines, have been extended to hundreds of these robbers, and thus coals of fire have been heaped upon their heads; but their skulls were so thick, it never burned many of them a bit.

That is hate, but of course you'll wave it away. Again, where was this alleged "spirit" when he spoke such words? In full agreement? Yes.....
I had to live at that time to understand fully minds and hearts of those people.
I don't see him preaching to hate someone. I don't see him telling that Spirit leads him to hate.
Yes, there was violence at those times you and I will never understand. But I don't see claims to hate someone.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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10-12-2015, 01:48 PM (This post was last modified: 10-12-2015 01:52 PM by TheInquisition.)
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(10-12-2015 01:13 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(10-12-2015 12:48 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Here's a typical example of what George A White was preaching from Liberty and Persecution—Conduct of the U. S. Government, Etc George A. Smith


That is hate, but of course you'll wave it away. Again, where was this alleged "spirit" when he spoke such words? In full agreement? Yes.....
I had to live at that time to understand fully minds and hearts of those people.
I don't see him preaching to hate someone. I don't see him telling that Spirit leads him to hate.
Yes, there was violence at those times you and I will never understand. But I don't see claims to hate someone.
Where was this "Spirit" telling them to stop the massacre? What good is this alleged "spirit"?

There was an entire chain of command going clear up to Brigham Young that could have averted this. Almost everyone in this chain of command could have had the "spirit" lead them to a better outcome.

Did the "spirit" decide not to delay Brigham Young's order and make it unambiguous enough that it could not have been interpreted as sanction of the Massacre if it had been received in time? Nope.

Did the "spirit" speak to George A White as he had contact with all of the leaders in the massacre beforehand to call it off? Nope.

Did the "spirit" tell Isaac Haight to simply stand down? Nope.

The day before the Massacre began on Sept. 6th did Brigham Young get any wisdom from "the spirit" or did he declare that Utah was no longer bound by the laws of the United States? Yep!

An entire chain of command went headlong into their bloodlust while listening to their "spirit".

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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10-12-2015, 04:16 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
TheInquisition
Where was this "Spirit" telling them to stop the massacre? What good is this alleged "spirit"?
Alla
Oh, if only we listened and followed all the time to what Spirit tells us. It would be great. But we don't do this. We are imperfect beings.

TheInquisition
There was an entire chain of command going clear up to Brigham Young that could have averted this. Almost everyone in this chain of command could have had the "spirit" lead them to a better outcome.
Alla
They say that when Brigham Young got the message and sent the answer not to do anything, it was too late.

TheInquisition
Did the "spirit" speak to George A White as he had contact with all of the leaders in the massacre beforehand to call it off? Nope.
Ala
Do you have any evidence he ordered massacre? is there any claim from him that Spirit told him to order massacre? Please, provide, I want to read it.

TheInquisition
Did the "spirit" tell Isaac Haight to simply stand down? Nope.
Alla
May be not because he wouldn't hear it any way. He would ignore it.

TheInquisition
The day before the Massacre began on Sept. 6th did Brigham Young get any wisdom from "the spirit" or did he declare that Utah was no longer bound by the laws of the United States? Yep!
Alla
May be he did. But we don't know how fast communications were. we don't know the whole situation.

TheInquisition
An entire chain of command went headlong into their bloodlust while listening to their "spirit".
Alla
You don't know this. You don't have any facts. You can not understand anything about that time. But of course, if this is what you wish to assume, please do so. I don't mind you to assume things.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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10-12-2015, 04:25 PM (This post was last modified: 10-12-2015 05:32 PM by TheInquisition.)
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(10-12-2015 04:16 PM)Alla Wrote:  TheInquisition
Where was this "Spirit" telling them to stop the massacre? What good is this alleged "spirit"?
Alla
Oh, if only we listened and followed all the time to what Spirit tells us. It would be great. But we don't do this. We are imperfect beings.

TheInquisition
There was an entire chain of command going clear up to Brigham Young that could have averted this. Almost everyone in this chain of command could have had the "spirit" lead them to a better outcome.
Alla
They say that when Brigham Young got the message and sent the answer not to do anything, it was too late.

TheInquisition
Did the "spirit" speak to George A Smith as he had contact with all of the leaders in the massacre beforehand to call it off? Nope.
Ala
Do you have any evidence he ordered massacre? is there any claim from him that Spirit told him to order massacre? Please, provide, I want to read it.

TheInquisition
Did the "spirit" tell Isaac Haight to simply stand down? Nope.
Alla
May be not because he wouldn't hear it any way. He would ignore it.

TheInquisition
The day before the Massacre began on Sept. 6th did Brigham Young get any wisdom from "the spirit" or did he declare that Utah was no longer bound by the laws of the United States? Yep!
Alla
May be he did. But we don't know how fast communications were. we don't know the whole situation.

TheInquisition
An entire chain of command went headlong into their bloodlust while listening to their "spirit".
Alla
You don't know this. You don't have any facts. You can not understand anything about that time. But of course, if this is what you wish to assume, please do so. I don't mind you to assume things.

Yeah, it's documented you insipid child. Only a mind warped by your religion can't see it.

For you to proclaim that you "know the spirit" is only as good as the claim of George Smith, Brigham Young, and Isaac Haight. It's a documented historical fact about the roles they played in the massacre, but you are forced to deny it because you love this delusion.

You cannot make any greater claim to special "spirit" leadership anymore than Isaac Haight did when he opened fire on innocent people.

Your "spirit" leads you to the same place as Isaac Haight as he pulled the trigger.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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