Crime, guilt and free will
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10-12-2015, 04:29 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
TheInqusition:
It's a documented historical fact about the roles they played in the massacre, but you are forced to deny it because you love this delusion.

Alla:

No, it is not. BTW, what document are you talking about?

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10-12-2015, 05:49 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(10-12-2015 04:29 PM)Alla Wrote:  TheInqusition:
It's a documented historical fact about the roles they played in the massacre, but you are forced to deny it because you love this delusion.

Alla:

No, it is not. BTW, what document are you talking about?


Mountain Meadows Mormon Massacre Smoking Gun Sermon - 9/13/1857


Autobiography of Isaac Haight

You do know that Isaac Haight was indicted for his crimes, right?

Most of this is a side issue though, what this entire nasty incident demonstrates that men that were pillars of the early Mormon church were constantly claiming they were listening to "the spirit". Yet they willfully committed this atrocity despite their claims of guidance by the "spirit".

You have no basis to claim that your hot line to the "spirit" is any better than theirs. From the standpoint of the Mormons, I'm willing to bet they place a lot more stock in their leader's ability to hear the "spirit" than your ability to hear anything. Yet it's clear just how wrong they were, how evil and murderous they were.

You can claim nothing more than they can, get it?

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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10-12-2015, 05:55 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
1)Apostles(Leaders of the Church) didn't order massacre. You can not support your claims by any evidence. But I don't mind you believe in your claims.
2)Spirit teaches but we all sin. We all do things that offend Spirit.
3)Nobody claimed that Spirit said to murder those particular people.

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10-12-2015, 05:57 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
Spirit teaches me. But sometimes I do not follow His promptings.

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10-12-2015, 06:04 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(10-12-2015 05:55 PM)Alla Wrote:  1)Apostles(Leaders of the Church) didn't order massacre. You can not support your claims by any evidence. But I don't mind you believe in your claims.
2)Spirit teaches but we all sin. We all do things that offend Spirit.
3)Nobody claimed that Spirit said to murder those particular people.

Isaac Chauncey Haight (May 27, 1813 – September 8, 1886), an early convert to the Latter Day Saint Movement, was a colonist of the American West remembered as a major conspirator of the Mountain Meadows massacre.

Pretty damned easy to find the facts.

Proof.

One little Google search.

Alla, you are either bat shit insane, in denial, totally uneducated, stupid, or a troll. Pick one.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
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10-12-2015, 06:09 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(10-12-2015 05:55 PM)Alla Wrote:  1)Apostles(Leaders of the Church) didn't order massacre. You can not support your claims by any evidence. But I don't mind you believe in your claims.

Read this one that The Inquisition posted carefully. It is both fascinating and despicable at the same time. And G.A. Smith was an LDS Apostle.

Mountain Meadows Mormon Massacre Smoking Gun Sermon - 9/13/1857

#sigh
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10-12-2015, 06:47 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(10-12-2015 06:09 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  It is both fascinating and despicable at the same time. And G.A. Smith was an LDS Apostle.
Yes, he was an Apostle. But apostles have many responsibilities. One of them is to protect Church members.
The same with bishops. Very seldom I hear my bishop preaches. Mostly he is meeting with members and resolves temporal problems. Countless food orders and family counseling.

Apostles of Christ are not what many people think they are.
We can not judge those people, we will never understand those times and situation. Our judgment may be very wrong.
Apostles and prophets are humans. We all make mistakes.
But Restored Gospel of Christ is true. Book of Mormon is true.
Nobody justifies massacre. Nobody.
And to the main point of TheInqusition: Smith didn't say that Spirit told him to murder people.

LDS people were persecuted and they decided that nobody will persecute them again. They will defend themselves. Those were very confusing and difficult times in America. You will never understand them. I will never understand them.

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10-12-2015, 06:52 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(10-12-2015 06:47 PM)Alla Wrote:  We can not judge those people, we will never understand those times and situation. Our judgment may be very wrong.

Would you say this in defence of Hitler?

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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10-12-2015, 07:02 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
A quote:


Communication—Too Late

President Young’s express message of reply to Haight, dated September 10, arrived in Cedar City two days after the massacre. His letter reported recent news that no U.S. troops would be able to reach the territory before winter. “So you see that the Lord has answered our prayers and again averted the blow designed for our heads,” he wrote.

“In regard to emigration trains passing through our settlements,” Young continued, “we must not interfere with them untill they are first notified to keep away. You must not meddle with them. The Indians we expect will do as they please but you should try and preserve good feelings with them. There are no other trains going south that I know of[.] [I]f those who are there will leave let them go in peace. While we should be on the alert, on hand and always ready we should also possess ourselves in patience, preserving ourselves and property ever remembering that God rules.” 6

When Haight read Young’s words, he sobbed like a child and could manage only the words, “Too late, too late.” 7

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10-12-2015, 07:05 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(10-12-2015 06:52 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(10-12-2015 06:47 PM)Alla Wrote:  We can not judge those people, we will never understand those times and situation. Our judgment may be very wrong.

Would you say this in defence of Hitler?

No, nobody just persecuted Hitler. Nobody just raped and killed his wife. Nobody burned his house. Nobody told him that Jews are coming to kill him and all his people.

But when you suffered, were persecuted, almost terminated and you hear news that they are coming to persecute you again, you may be scared and confused. Not justified though.

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