Crime, guilt and free will
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10-12-2015, 07:30 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(10-12-2015 07:05 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(10-12-2015 06:52 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Would you say this in defence of Hitler?

No, nobody just persecuted Hitler. Nobody just raped and killed his wife. Nobody burned his house. Nobody told him that Jews are coming to kill him and all his people.

But when you suffered, were persecuted, almost terminated and you hear news that they are coming to persecute you again, you may be scared and confused. Not justified though.


Hitler was in WWI and felt slighted by Germany's loss. He also suffered due to the treaty of Versailles. As did most returned soldiers.

Did Germany and the German people not suffer?

In fact they did, heavily.

Again your complete lack of historical knowledge shines through. Either that, or you are trolling. Trolling very carefully and masterfully. English is not your first language, you are just a woman, you never cross the line and pretend to be a complete idiot.

I'm onto you alla.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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10-12-2015, 07:43 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
LDS were persecuted and they were told they would be persecuted again. Some local leaders made horrific mistake. They never claimed that God told them to do this.
Humans make mistakes.
LDS people do not believe that their leaders are perfect sinless men.
When we are scared and confused, or angry we do not listen to the Spirit.
So, some LDS people made horrible mistake, but Book of Mormon is true. Church is true. Restored Gospel is true.

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SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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10-12-2015, 07:47 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(30-11-2015 09:02 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  I can imagine an apologist saying ...

"Because god created us all, he can do whatever he wants. Even if he wanted to torture everyone forever, he could and it would be within his right to do do. I don't believe he would, but he could. When it comes to unsolved crimes, that's just gods way of trying to make us smarter so we can figure them out. Its a shame that others have to die to teach us lessons, but in the end, its all part of gods magnificent plan."

And then after the apologist says all that, you now understand its OK to bludgeon him to death, because its all part of gods plan.

Aint God cool!
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10-12-2015, 07:47 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(10-12-2015 06:52 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(10-12-2015 06:47 PM)Alla Wrote:  We can not judge those people, we will never understand those times and situation. Our judgment may be very wrong.

Would you say this in defence of Hitler?
I didn't say anything in defense of those LDS leaders. I don't defend anybody. When did I tell you I defend them or justify their actions? I only try to make a point to TheInquisition's poit about the Spirit.

When people are scared, confused, angry they may not hear promptings of the the Spirit: stop, stop, stop, don't murder!!!!!!!

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10-12-2015, 07:51 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(10-12-2015 05:57 PM)Alla Wrote:  Spirit teaches me. But sometimes I do not follow His promptings.

I would not either if I were you. Maybe trade him in on a female model of spirit. More like made in your own image.
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10-12-2015, 07:53 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
So, TheInquisition, the Spirit(this is how I call this mysterious convincing power) convinces me about things that are good and true.
But sometimes I don't follow those promptings. When? When I want to do things my way.

Those leaders also did some things their way. That is why they need Christ.
Book of Mormon is true, Restored Gospel of Christ is true. LDS Church is true.

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10-12-2015, 08:17 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(10-12-2015 07:43 PM)Alla Wrote:  LDS were persecuted and they were told they would be persecuted again. Some local leaders made horrific mistake. They never claimed that God told them to do this.
Humans make mistakes.
LDS people do not believe that their leaders are perfect sinless men.
When we are scared and confused, or angry we do not listen to the Spirit.
So, some LDS people made horrible mistake, but Book of Mormon is true. Church is true. Restored Gospel is true.

The Book of Mormon and your religion is true because you said so? Really ? And the evidence for your assertions is ?

Religion is bullshit. The winner of the last person to post wins thread.Yes
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10-12-2015, 09:41 PM (This post was last modified: 10-12-2015 09:56 PM by TheInquisition.)
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(10-12-2015 07:53 PM)Alla Wrote:  So, TheInquisition, the Spirit(this is how I call this mysterious convincing power) convinces me about things that are good and true.
But sometimes I don't follow those promptings. When? When I want to do things my way.

Those leaders also did some things their way. That is why they need Christ.
Book of Mormon is true, Restored Gospel of Christ is true. LDS Church is true.

Now how would you know what George Smith or Isaac Haight did or didn't obey? You do realize Both Smith and Haight were pastors and preached over a period of years, each time in those sermons, I'm sure they said something about the spirit's voice inside them.

They did this for YEARS Alla, YEARS. They both preached to many people during that time. The "spirit" was a giant no-show during those YEARS. None of the leaders, none of the congregation pulled them aside and said - you know Haight and Smith, maybe you ought to tone down the rhetoric, I don't think this will lead to anything good. We need to be a voice of calm and reason during this time.

See, they didn't need the "spirit", they needed a voice of reason, and that was something their "spirit" was NEVER going to provide.

I am sure they heard a lot of inner voices during those years, but for some reason, you think you could have set Brigham-Fucking-Young and George Fucking Smith straight with your "spirit"?
You know what would have happened if you were there to speak out? They would have excommunicated you or simply took you out back and kicked in your teeth. This is what Mormonism is, it's a gang of religious thugs and murder was not something they hesitated at.
Those "brothers" would have walked right back into their church after leaving you bleeding and broken in the alley way strutting with piety and the congregation would have agreed with all of their actions.

Read and learn about what was going on at that time:

Last Confession and Statement of John Doyle Lee

At the earnest solicitation of Brother Hopkins, I returned with him to the Council. When I got back, the Council again prayed for aid. The Council was called The City Counselors, the Church or High Counselors; and all in authority, together with the private citizens, then formed a circle, and kneeling down, so that elbows would touch each other, several of the brethren prayed for Divine instructions.
After prayer, Major Higbee said, "I have the evidence of God's approval of our mission. It is God's will that we carry out our instructions to the letter."

I said, "My God! this is more than I can do. I must and do refuse to take part in this matter."

Higbee then said to me, "Brother Lee, I am ordered by President Haight to inform you that you shall receive a crown of Celestial glory for your faithfulness, and your eternal joy shall be complete."
I was much shaken by this offer, for I had full faith in the power of the Priesthood to bestow such rewards and blessings, but I was anxious to save the people. I then proposed that we give the Indians all of the stock of the emigrants, except sufficient to haul their wagons, and let them go. To this proposition all the leading men objected. No man there raised his voice or hand to favor the saving of life, except myself.

The meeting was then addressed by some one in authority, I do not remember who it was. He spoke in about this language: "Brethren, we have been sent here to perform a duty. It is a duty that we owe to God, and to our Church and people. The orders of those in authority are that all the emigrants must die. Our leaders speak with inspired tongues, and their orders come from the God of Heaven. We have no right to question what they have commanded us to do; it is our duty to obey. If we wished to act as some of our weak-kneed brethren desire us to do, it would be impossible; the thing has gone too far to allow us to stop now.
The emigrants know that we have aided the Indians, and if we let them go they will bring certain destruction upon us. It is a fact that on Wednesday night, two of the emigrants got out of camp and started back to Cedar City for assistance to withstand the Indian attacks; they had reached Richards' Springs when they met William C. Stewart, Joel White and Benjamin Arthur, three of our brethren from Cedar City. The men stated their business to the brethren, and as their horses were drinking at the Spring, Brother Stewart, feeling unusually full of zeal for the glory of God and the upbuilding of the Kingdom of God on earth, shot and killed one of the emigrants, a young man by the name of Aden. When Aden fell from his horse, Joel White shot and wounded the other Gentile; but he unfortunately got away, and returned to his camp and reported that the Mormons were helping the Indians in all that they were doing against the emigrants. Now the emigrants will report these facts in California if we let them go. We must kill them

all, and our orders are to get them out by treachery if no other thing can be done to get them into our power."





Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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10-12-2015, 09:51 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
What you have here is a systemic issue that dominated in the church during that time, I would say that it continues to this day.
The leaders simply declare by fiat what God wants and you don't fucking question it.

This is your "Holy Spirit" in action inside the church Alla, this is who they truly are.

You can assert whatever you want about holy spirit this or that, but if you go against the leadership you will find out in short order EXACTLY what they think about your cute little ideas.

It's the naive dupes like you where they get their power from, but the power only flows one way.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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11-12-2015, 01:27 AM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(10-12-2015 07:47 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(10-12-2015 06:52 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Would you say this in defence of Hitler?
I didn't say anything in defense of those LDS leaders. I don't defend anybody. When did I tell you I defend them or justify their actions? I only try to make a point to TheInquisition's poit about the Spirit.

When people are scared, confused, angry they may not hear promptings of the the Spirit: stop, stop, stop, don't murder!!!!!!!

Hi troll.

Are you quoting something here?

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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