Crime, guilt and free will
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11-12-2015, 06:46 AM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
Some more from the Smoking gun sermon of George A. Smith pg224:

I will say to the brethren and sisters, that I feel to return to my heavenly Father my thanks that he has thus far frustrated the designs of our enemies; and I know, if we are humble and united, and moved upon by the right Spirit, God will fight our battles.

And of any of us are called upon to lay down their lives in the defence of our religion, God will save us in our celestial glory, and he will preserve us, though all the world be against us.

[President B. Young: “That is true.”]

These are my feelings, and this is my faith. No matter what day or hour we are called to go into the presence of our Father in heaven; for every man and woman that has not got a religion that is worth more than their mortal lives, and unless we are willing to sacrifice all that pertains to these temporal feelings, we are not worthy of salvation.


So here's George Smith stating that God and the spirit were dictating their actions, even with the promise of "celestial glory" if anyone died in defence of their religion. With Brigham Young interjecting "That is true."

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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11-12-2015, 03:29 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
"TheInquisition[/quote Wrote:b]I will say to the brethren and sisters, that I feel to return to my heavenly Father my thanks that he has thus far frustrated the designs of our enemies; and I know, if we are humble and united, and moved upon by the right Spirit, God will fight our battles. [/b]
Let's see. Here he says that he thanks God for helping them. Enemies didn't harm them so far. He also says that he knows that if they are humble and united, and moved upon by Spirit, God will fight their battles.

Did he say here that God and Spirit dictated their actions? The answer is "no". He says that IF they are HUMBLE and IF they are moved by the Spirit only then God will help them.
That is all he said.
Now I have questions:
Did those Mormons who murdered innocent people follow this particular council of the prophet? Were they humble that day? Were they moved upon by the Spirit? My answer is this: I don't think so. If they were humble and if they were moved by the Spirit they wouldn't kill those people.

But TheInquisition is trying to convince me that his assumptions are true.

Next.
And of any of us are called upon to lay down their lives in the defence of our religion, God will save us in our celestial glory, and he will preserve us, though all the world be against us.
Hmm, not a word that God and Spirit were dictating their actions to murder innocent people.

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11-12-2015, 03:33 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(11-12-2015 01:27 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(10-12-2015 07:47 PM)Alla Wrote:  I didn't say anything in defense of those LDS leaders. I don't defend anybody. When did I tell you I defend them or justify their actions? I only try to make a point to TheInquisition's poit about the Spirit.

When people are scared, confused, angry they may not hear promptings of the the Spirit: stop, stop, stop, don't murder!!!!!!!

Hi troll.

Are you quoting something here?
Banjo, you are adorable Kiss

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11-12-2015, 03:35 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
TheInquisition
even with the promise of "celestial glory" if anyone died in defence of their religion.

Alla
Nope, I don't see it. Not a word that their actions to murder innocent people were dictated by God and Spirit.

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11-12-2015, 04:03 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(11-12-2015 03:35 PM)Alla Wrote:  TheInquisition
even with the promise of "celestial glory" if anyone died in defence of their religion.

Alla
Nope, I don't see it. Not a word that their actions to murder innocent people were dictated by God and Spirit.

Of course not, it's because it's personal revelation.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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11-12-2015, 04:05 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(11-12-2015 03:35 PM)Alla Wrote:  TheInquisition
even with the promise of "celestial glory" if anyone died in defence of their religion.

Alla
Nope, I don't see it. Not a word that their actions to murder innocent people were dictated by God and Spirit.

I think anyone of reasonable intelligence can see exactly what he said, I certainly didn't expect you to be in that group.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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11-12-2015, 04:12 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
So I guess my other post was too long for you to read, so I''ll repost this:

After prayer, Major Higbee said, "I have the evidence of God's approval of our mission. It is God's will that we carry out our instructions to the letter."

I said, "My God! this is more than I can do. I must and do refuse to take part in this matter."

Higbee then said to me, "Brother Lee, I am ordered by President Haight to inform you that you shall receive a crown of Celestial glory for your faithfulness, and your eternal joy shall be complete."


They are claiming that God told them to kill everyone in the Baker-Fancher party.

So anytime you bleat about the "spirit" telling you things, I know that you have no more claim to the truth than what Major Higbee or John D Lee claimed.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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11-12-2015, 04:16 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
TheInqusition Wrote:Now how would you know what George Smith or Isaac Haight did or didn't obey?
I don't know. But my point is not tell you what I know or don't know. My point is that you don't know.
TheInqusition Wrote:You do realize Both Smith and Haight were pastors and preached over a period of years, each time in those sermons, I'm sure they said something about the spirit's voice inside them.
Of course, they did. But where did they say that God and Spirit directed them to murder innocent people?
TheInqusition Wrote:They did this for YEARS Alla, YEARS. They both preached to many people during that time. The "spirit" was a giant no-show during those YEARS. None of the leaders, none of the congregation pulled them aside and said - you know Haight and Smith, maybe you ought to tone down the rhetoric, I don't think this will lead to anything good. We need to be a voice of calm and reason during this time.
Are you telling me that because of those preachings all or majority of Mormons at those times were violent and were murdering innocent people all the time?
If this is what you are saying, then I will tell you that there is a problem with this claim. You don't know if it is true.
All people make mistakes. Nobody is perfect. That was a horrible tragedy and it can not be justified. Nobody justifies it..
But you are trying to convince me that because of what LDS leaders said all or majority of Mormons were violent and ready to murder.
TheInqusition Wrote:See, they didn't need the "spirit", they needed a voice of reason,

They needed both.
TheInqusition Wrote:and that was something their "spirit" was NEVER going to provide.
Yes, you can claim this. Too bad you don't know if it is true.

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11-12-2015, 04:18 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(11-12-2015 04:16 PM)Alla Wrote:  
TheInqusition Wrote:Now how would you know what George Smith or Isaac Haight did or didn't obey?
I don't know. But my point is not tell you what I know or don't know. My point is that you don't know.
TheInqusition Wrote:You do realize Both Smith and Haight were pastors and preached over a period of years, each time in those sermons, I'm sure they said something about the spirit's voice inside them.
Of course, they did. But where did they say that God and Spirit directed them to murder innocent people?
TheInqusition Wrote:They did this for YEARS Alla, YEARS. They both preached to many people during that time. The "spirit" was a giant no-show during those YEARS. None of the leaders, none of the congregation pulled them aside and said - you know Haight and Smith, maybe you ought to tone down the rhetoric, I don't think this will lead to anything good. We need to be a voice of calm and reason during this time.
Are you telling me that because of those preachings all or majority of Mormons at those times were violent and were murdering innocent people all the time?
If this is what you are saying, then I will tell you that there is a problem with this claim. You don't know if it is true.
All people make mistakes. Nobody is perfect. That was a horrible tragedy and it can not be justified. Nobody justifies it..
But you are trying to convince me that because of what LDS leaders said all or majority of Mormons were violent and ready to murder.
TheInqusition Wrote:See, they didn't need the "spirit", they needed a voice of reason,

They needed both.
[quote"=TheInqusition"]
and that was something their "spirit" was NEVER going to provide.
Yes, you can claim this. Too bad you don't know if it is true.
[/quote]

Are you that dense? Of course you are.
I know that because they fucking killed everyone!

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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11-12-2015, 04:51 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(11-12-2015 04:12 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  So I guess my other post was too long for you to read, so I''ll repost this:

After prayer, Major Higbee said, "I have the evidence of God's approval of our mission. It is God's will that we carry out our instructions to the letter."

I said, "My God! this is more than I can do. I must and do refuse to take part in this matter."

Higbee then said to me, "Brother Lee, I am ordered by President Haight to inform you that you shall receive a crown of Celestial glory for your faithfulness, and your eternal joy shall be complete."


They are claiming that God told them to kill everyone in the Baker-Fancher party.
I have read that according to some sources Higbee was the one who gave orders/signals to commit murder.
Higbee and John D. Lee each accused the other of leading the final massacre.
So, they murdered and then they lied.

Did they follow council of the prophet and apostle of God to be humble and to be moved upon by Spirit?
I don't think so.
(11-12-2015 04:12 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  So anytime you bleat about the "spirit" telling you things, I know that you have no more claim to the truth than what Major Higbee or John D Lee claimed.
Yes, I just murdered innocent people and I have to justify myself by saying that it was God's will, so please do not punish me.

P.S. Mormons are not perfect people. Some of them do horrible things when they do not follow council of the apostles Prophets of God - TO BE HUMBLE.
when we are not humble we can not hear the Spirit. He can not influence us.

But the Church is true. Restored Gospel is true. Book of Mormon is true. And yes, Spirit(convincing power) convinces me and guides me to do good to all people.


So, TheInquisition, Apostle and Prophet of God didn't say that God said to murder innocent people and that actions of those murderers were directed by God. Apostle and Prophet of God said: [b]be humble
. And IF you are humble God will fight your battles so you don't have to"

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