Crime, guilt and free will
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11-12-2015, 04:58 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
1. Those Prophets of God did not preach to murder innocent people.
2. Majority of Mormons(those who followed Prophet's council) were very peaceful, hard working people.
3. Those who did NOT follow council of the Prophets did wrong and horrible things.
4. Prophets did not claim that God directed them to murder innocent people.
5. Spirit convinces me about things that are true.
6. Book of Mormon is true.
7. LDS Prophets are true Prophets of God and Apostles of Christ.
8. Church and restored Gospel are true

9.TheInqusition's claims have one problem, he doesn't know if they are true.

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11-12-2015, 05:18 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(11-12-2015 04:58 PM)Alla Wrote:  9.TheInqusition's claims have one problem, he doesn't know if they are true.

You're right, he doesn't know. But he has uncovered a shitload of circumstantial evidence. And even if the Apostle George Smith didn't explicitly claim the Spirit moved him, we can assume that the Iron County Utah Territorial Militia murderers believed that the Spirit was speaking through the Apostle. Because he's an Apostle and shit.

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11-12-2015, 05:21 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(11-12-2015 05:18 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(11-12-2015 04:58 PM)Alla Wrote:  9.TheInqusition's claims have one problem, he doesn't know if they are true.

You're right, he doesn't know. But he has uncovered a shitload of circumstantial evidence. And even if the Apostle George Smith didn't explicitly claim the Spirit moved him, we can assume that the Iron County Utah Territorial Militia murderers believed that the Spirit was speaking through the Apostle. Because he's an Apostle and shit.
Yes, I assume they believed that the Spirit speaks to Apostle. But Apostle didn't teach and didn't order to murder innocent people.
it was their choice(those people).
And then they lied that God told them to do this.

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11-12-2015, 05:21 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(11-12-2015 04:51 PM)Alla Wrote:  P.S. Mormons are not perfect people. Some of them do horrible things when they do not follow council of the apostles Prophets of God -

You mean like the apostle George A Smith?

Again, Higbee and others claimed to receive approval from God. That tells me all I need to know when anyone makes similar claims.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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11-12-2015, 05:25 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(11-12-2015 05:21 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(11-12-2015 05:18 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  You're right, he doesn't know. But he has uncovered a shitload of circumstantial evidence. And even if the Apostle George Smith didn't explicitly claim the Spirit moved him, we can assume that the Iron County Utah Territorial Militia murderers believed that the Spirit was speaking through the Apostle. Because he's an Apostle and shit.
Yes, I assume they believed that the Spirit speaks to Apostle. But Apostle didn't teach and didn't order to murder innocent people.
it was their choice(those people).
And then they lied that God told them to do this.

YOU don't know this.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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11-12-2015, 05:34 PM (This post was last modified: 11-12-2015 05:39 PM by Alla.)
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(11-12-2015 05:21 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Again, Higbee and others claimed to receive approval from God. That tells me all I need to know when anyone makes similar claims.
Of course, the murderer will say anything to be justified.
But I am not trying to convince you to believe my claim that Spirit teaches me. I am not trying to convince you to believe in God.
What I am trying to do is to tell you that nobody can claim that LDS Prophets and Apostles ordered to murder innocent people and said that God directed them.
Prophets of God give good and wise council to the Church.

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11-12-2015, 05:37 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(11-12-2015 05:25 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(11-12-2015 05:21 PM)Alla Wrote:  Yes, I assume they believed that the Spirit speaks to Apostle. But Apostle didn't teach and didn't order to murder innocent people.
it was their choice(those people).
And then they lied that God told them to do this.

YOU don't know this.
Great point. I don't know, you don't know and nobody knows.
But you can show me proof that Apostle(s) of God taught to kill innocent people and justified it by God's approval.

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11-12-2015, 05:42 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(11-12-2015 05:21 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(11-12-2015 04:51 PM)Alla Wrote:  P.S. Mormons are not perfect people. Some of them do horrible things when they do not follow council of the apostles Prophets of God -

You mean like the apostle George A Smith?
What bad council did he(G.A. Smith) give specifically that all or majority of Mormons became horrible, violent and not hard working people?

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12-12-2015, 06:42 AM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(11-12-2015 05:34 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(11-12-2015 05:21 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Again, Higbee and others claimed to receive approval from God. That tells me all I need to know when anyone makes similar claims.
Of course, the murderer will say anything to be justified.
But I am not trying to convince you to believe my claim that Spirit teaches me. I am not trying to convince you to believe in God.
What I am trying to do is to tell you that nobody can claim that LDS Prophets and Apostles ordered to murder innocent people and said that God directed them.
Prophets of God give good and wise council to the Church.

You will refuse to see it, even when the smoking gun is presented.

Here's how the world works, higher level leaders will talk in vague and generally supportive terms, always open to interpretation, never in specifics.
If they talk in specifics, this will get them in trouble, they know and understand that their followers will gladly get their hands dirty while they will not get the blame. It's the idiot followers that ALWAYS get blamed when they do the leader's dirty work, this is called plausible deniability.

I can see this in George A Smith's words and Brigham Young's words and actions. Just a couple of weeks after the massacre Brigham Young interviews his adopted son, and central player, John D Lee about the incident, he then sends a report to Commissioner of Indian Affairs stating that the massacre was the work of Native Americans.

It's apparent what they did in this interview was develop their cover story, but the crafty Brigham Young already had the finger of blame pointing to his son. John D Lee was already designated the fall guy by the time he walked out of that interview with Brigham Young, whether he knew it or not.

Look at Brigham Young's statement:

In regard to emigration trains passing through our settlements, we must not interfere with them until they are first notified to keep away. You must not meddle with them. The Indians we expect will do as they please but you should try and preserve good feelings with them. There are no other trains going south that I know of. If those who are there will leave let them go in peace.


George A Smith recounts how they met with "hundreds of the natives" to tell them how they were going to deal with the Baker-Fancher party. The upper-level leadership had already determined they were going to let the Indians, in Brigham Young's parlance "do as they please".

The Indians did what the Mormons wanted them to do, they knew that Isaac Haight and company were going to start it, the Indians were going to simply follow their lead, but it would be easy to blame them after the fact.

They had the means and they had an easy path of deniability that would absolve them of any responsibility. Here's their path of deflection:

1. No one finds out, kill them all. But they allowed kids to survive, they thought they wouldn't remember it or be believed, but they did and they were, time for step 2

2. Blame the Indians, this worked until investigations started revealing evidence of this atrocity, time for step 3.

3. Blame the leader's directly involved (Haight, Lee, etc.)

Haight was indicted and went into hiding to avoid prosecution. Again, the Mormon faithful aided and abetted this. Another win for the "spirit" I guess.

John D Lee was caught however and almost 20 years after the massacre, was executed by firing squad on March 23rd, 1877.

We only have Lee's own words before he was executed as evidence-

"I have always believed, since that day, that General George A. Smith was then visiting southern Utah to prepare the people for the work of exterminating Captain Fancher's train of emigrants, and I now believe that he was sent for that purpose by the direct command of Brigham Young."


Again, the leadership can do whatever the hell they want, and the naive dupes under them will provide cover for them. Haight and Lee did this for their leaders over 150 years ago, you're doing it right now on this thread.

Maybe you'll get tired of being a dupe when you wise up, but hey, you're going to get a fucking planet after you die! Can't interfere with that now, can we? Facepalm

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

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12-12-2015, 07:00 AM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(12-12-2015 06:42 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(11-12-2015 05:34 PM)Alla Wrote:  Of course, the murderer will say anything to be justified.
But I am not trying to convince you to believe my claim that Spirit teaches me. I am not trying to convince you to believe in God.
What I am trying to do is to tell you that nobody can claim that LDS Prophets and Apostles ordered to murder innocent people and said that God directed them.
Prophets of God give good and wise council to the Church.

You will refuse to see it, even when the smoking gun is presented.

Here's how the world works, higher level leaders will talk in vague and generally supportive terms, always open to interpretation, never in specifics.
If they talk in specifics, this will get them in trouble, they know and understand that their followers will gladly get their hands dirty while they will not get the blame. It's the idiot followers that ALWAYS get blamed when they do the leader's dirty work, this is called plausible deniability.

I can see this in George A Smith's words and Brigham Young's words and actions. Just a couple of weeks after the massacre Brigham Young interviews his adopted son, and central player, John D Lee about the incident, he then sends a report to Commissioner of Indian Affairs stating that the massacre was the work of Native Americans.

It's apparent what they did in this interview was develop their cover story, but the crafty Brigham Young already had the finger of blame pointing to his son. John D Lee was already designated the fall guy by the time he walked out of that interview with Brigham Young, whether he knew it or not.

Look at Brigham Young's statement:

In regard to emigration trains passing through our settlements, we must not interfere with them until they are first notified to keep away. You must not meddle with them. The Indians we expect will do as they please but you should try and preserve good feelings with them. There are no other trains going south that I know of. If those who are there will leave let them go in peace.


George A Smith recounts how they met with "hundreds of the natives" to tell them how they were going to deal with the Baker-Fancher party. The upper-level leadership had already determined they were going to let the Indians, in Brigham Young's parlance "do as they please".

The Indians did what the Mormons wanted them to do, they knew that Isaac Haight and company were going to start it, the Indians were going to simply follow their lead, but it would be easy to blame them after the fact.

They had the means and they had an easy path of deniability that would absolve them of any responsibility. Here's their path of deflection:

1. No one finds out, kill them all. But they allowed kids to survive, they thought they wouldn't remember it or be believed, but they did and they were, time for step 2

2. Blame the Indians, this worked until investigations started revealing evidence of this atrocity, time for step 3.

3. Blame the leader's directly involved (Haight, Lee, etc.)

Haight was indicted and went into hiding to avoid prosecution. Again, the Mormon faithful aided and abetted this. Another win for the "spirit" I guess.

John D Lee was caught however and almost 20 years after the massacre, was executed by firing squad on March 23rd, 1877.

We only have Lee's own words before he was executed as evidence-

"I have always believed, since that day, that General George A. Smith was then visiting southern Utah to prepare the people for the work of exterminating Captain Fancher's train of emigrants, and I now believe that he was sent for that purpose by the direct command of Brigham Young."


Again, the leadership can do whatever the hell they want, and the naive dupes under them will provide cover for them. Haight and Lee did this for their leaders over 150 years ago, you're doing it right now on this thread.

Maybe you'll get tired of being a dupe when you wise up, but hey, you're going to get a fucking planet after you die! Can't interfere with that now, can we? Facepalm

Plus, why in the fuck didn't Mormon god intervene? Where was Mormon god when the Fancher part was being besieged and staved to death for a week before the slaughter? Why didn't Mormon god, well aware of this supposed 'discrepancy' between his will and the message getting to the men on the ground, step in while the Mormons were picking up infants and smashing their heads open against the wagon wheels?

Where was Mormon god when the oldest of the 17 spared children, a 12 year old girl, was deemed to be old enough to 'tell tales' and was summarily executed with a gunshot through her head in front of the remaining children; with the added threat that "this will happen to you if you talk about what happened here!"?

Where was Mormon god?

He was nowhere that day, because he doesn't exist.

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