Crime, guilt and free will
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12-12-2015, 11:27 AM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(11-12-2015 05:37 PM)Alla Wrote:  But you can show me proof that Apostle(s) of God taught to kill innocent people and justified it by God's approval.

G.A. Smith fomented violence. He didn't need to order it.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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12-12-2015, 11:41 AM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
TheInquisition Wrote:Here's how the world works, higher level leaders will talk in vague and generally supportive terms, always open to interpretation, never in specifics.
If they talk in specifics, this will get them in trouble, they know and understand that their followers will gladly get their hands dirty while they will not get the blame. It's the idiot followers that ALWAYS get blamed when they do the leader's dirty work, this is called plausible deniability.
I agree, this is how the world or we(LDS) call it "Babylon" works. But this is not how things work in Zion - kingdom of God on Earth.
But I don't mind if you don't believe me.
TheInquisition Wrote:I can see this in George A Smith's words and Brigham Young's words and actions. Just a couple of weeks after the massacre Brigham Young interviews his adopted son, and central player, John D Lee about the incident, he then sends a report to Commissioner of Indian Affairs stating that the massacre was the work of Native Americans.
OK, can I read it? In their own words, please.
TheInquisition Wrote:It's apparent what they did in this interview was develop their cover story, but the crafty Brigham Young already had the finger of blame pointing to his son. John D Lee was already designated the fall guy by the time he walked out of that interview with Brigham Young, whether he knew it or not.
Are you quoiting someone? Brigham Young, perhaps?
TheInquisition Wrote:Look at Brigham Young's statement:
In regard to emigration trains passing through our settlements, we must not interfere with them until they are first notified to keep away. You must not meddle with them. The Indians we expect will do as they please but you should try and preserve good feelings with them. There are no other trains going south that I know of. If those who are there will leave let them go in peace.
Please, highlight the words were Young says that massacre is work of Indians.
Brigham Young said that Indians will do as they please. LDS believe in moral agency. Everybody has a right from God to make their moral choices.
TheInquisition Wrote:George A Smith recounts how they met with "hundreds of the natives" to tell them how they were going to deal with the Baker-Fancher party. The upper-level leadership had already determined they were going to let the Indians, in Brigham Young's parlance "do as they please".
Are you quoting someone? G.A. Smith perhaps? or these are someone's assumptions
TheInquisition Wrote:The Indians did what the Mormons wanted them to do, they knew that Isaac Haight and company were going to start it, the Indians were going to simply follow their lead, but it would be easy to blame them after the fact.
They had the means and they had an easy path of deniability that would absolve them of any responsibility. Here's their path of deflection:
1. No one finds out, kill them all. But they allowed kids to survive, they thought they wouldn't remember it or be believed, but they did and they were, time for step 2
2. Blame the Indians, this worked until investigations started revealing evidence of this atrocity, time for step 3.
3. Blame the leader's directly involved (Haight, Lee, etc.)
Haight was indicted and went into hiding to avoid prosecution. Again, the Mormon faithful aided and abetted this. Another win for the "spirit" I guess.
whose words are these? who are you quoting? or those are someone's assumptions
TheInquisition Wrote:We only have Lee's own words before he was executed as evidence-
"I have always believed, since that day, that General George A. Smith was then visiting southern Utah to prepare the people for the work of exterminating Captain Fancher's train of emigrants, and I now believe that he was sent for that purpose by the direct command of Brigham Young."

We only have words of a man who murdered innocent people without mercy. Are you suggesting that I have to believe his words? Yes, right. I wouldn't believe him even if his tongue was notarized.
TheInquisition Wrote:Again, the leadership can do whatever the hell they want, and the naive dupes under them will provide cover for them. Haight and Lee did this for their leaders over 150 years ago, you're doing it right now on this thread.

Please, provide their own words. I am interested in your assumptions. I am interested only in what you know.
I can not make my judgments on things I don't know.
Please, provide quotes with Prophets' and Apostles' own words. Then I will have perfect knowledge.

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12-12-2015, 11:48 AM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(12-12-2015 11:27 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(11-12-2015 05:37 PM)Alla Wrote:  But you can show me proof that Apostle(s) of God taught to kill innocent people and justified it by God's approval.

G.A. Smith fomented violence. He didn't need to order it.
LDS decided that they will defend themselves in case army comes to kill them. They suffered enough. You or I don't want to suffer like this.
LDS strongly believe in right that God gave them to defend themselves
Second Amendment is inspired by God.
Prophets are also mortal imperfect men who have their weaknesses and they do their best to be more like God.
"To do your best to be like God" is not equal to "to be perfect".
Prophets also repent when they make mistakes. God let them make mistakes like He let all of us make mistakes.
No Prophet of God was ever perfect. That is why ALL people on Earth need Christ and to repent.
And there are NO perfect books -scriptures.

But Church is true. Book of Mormon is true. Restored Gospel is true. LDS Prophets are true prophets of God Yahweh.

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12-12-2015, 11:57 AM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
....................

I can not make my judgment about men who lived long time ago when I DON'T HAVE the WORDS they said about their own actions

I don't base my judgment about those men on someone's assumptions. I may choose to believe or not to believe somebody's assumptions.
I choose not to believe these particular assumptions
Very important for me is this: Mysterious convincing power(I call it "Spirit") convinced me that Every LDS Prophet is true prophet of God

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12-12-2015, 12:07 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(12-12-2015 11:48 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(12-12-2015 11:27 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  G.A. Smith fomented violence. He didn't need to order it.
LDS decided that they will defend themselves in case army comes to kill them. They suffered enough. You or I don't want to suffer like this.
I get that but as it turned out the Army never showed up to Mountain Meadows and instead a bunch of innocents (including any children over the age of 7) were slaughtered.

(12-12-2015 11:48 AM)Alla Wrote:  LDS strongly believe in right that God gave them to defend themselves

Why do they believe that? My Bible says differently.

"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." - Matthew 5:39

(12-12-2015 11:48 AM)Alla Wrote:  Second Amendment is inspired by God.

Chapter and verse?

(12-12-2015 11:48 AM)Alla Wrote:  Prophets also repent when they make mistakes. God let them make mistakes like He let all of us make mistakes.

I wouldn't call first degree murder a "mistake".

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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12-12-2015, 12:23 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
GirlyMan Wrote:Why do they believe that? My Bible says differently.

"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." - Matthew 5:39

Here Jesus(The Word) is not teaching about physical violence(evil). The Word is teaching about another evil - the one that is inside of us. Pride
When someone tells you "you are stupid, moron, etc", please, resist this evil(PRIDE) that may be inside of you - to offend back.
A question: what did Jesus(The Word) say to do when they smite you on your left cheeck?
GirlyMan Wrote:Chapter and verse?
Jesus(The Word) said to His disciples before He had to leave this world:
Luke 22: 36
he that has a purse, let him sell it,.. and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

GirlyMan Wrote:I wouldn't call first degree murder a "mistake".
Od course. I don't know any LDS Prophet who murdered innocent people. If there is one I have no facts. Do you?

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12-12-2015, 12:31 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
When we resist this evil pride, then we do not resist evil(offence against us). we let them to offend us. We let them to smite our right check.
But when someone smites me on my left cheek then I make sure I have my sword to defend myself.
Second Amendment is the right from my Creator and Father

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12-12-2015, 12:39 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(12-12-2015 12:23 PM)Alla Wrote:  A question: what did Jesus(The Word) say to do when they smite you on your left cheeck?

Get a room you two?

(12-12-2015 12:23 PM)Alla Wrote:  
GirlyMan Wrote:Chapter and verse?
Jesus(The Word) said to His disciples before He had to leave this world:
Luke 22: 36
he that has a purse, let him sell it,.. and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Naked men wielding swords. Were bath salts involved?

(12-12-2015 12:23 PM)Alla Wrote:  
GirlyMan Wrote:I wouldn't call first degree murder a "mistake".
Od course. I don't know any LDS Prophet who murdered innocent people. If there is one I have no facts. Do you?

No, but I'm gonna look into it now. You gotta tell me the difference between an apostle and a prophet and a bishop and whatever else titles LDS has. Are we just talking about prophets?

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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12-12-2015, 12:48 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(12-12-2015 12:39 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(12-12-2015 12:23 PM)Alla Wrote:  A question: what did Jesus(The Word) say to do when they smite you on your left cheeck?
Get a room you two?
Laugh out load
GirlyMan Wrote:
(12-12-2015 12:23 PM)Alla Wrote:  and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Naked men wielding swords. Were bath salts involved?
Laugh out load

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I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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12-12-2015, 12:49 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(12-12-2015 12:31 PM)Alla Wrote:  Second Amendment is the right from my Creator and Father

I'm pretty sure it's a right granted to US citizens by the Bill of Rights. God was not a signatory.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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