Crime, guilt and free will
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05-12-2015, 03:27 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(05-12-2015 02:19 PM)Alla Wrote:  If I choose to touch the fire I will burn my fingers or even hand. If I choose not to touch the fire I will avoid evil consequence.

If I choose to touch the fire, I won't burn my fingers because I have become like gods. Only those who touch the fire will avoid evil consequence.
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05-12-2015, 05:25 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(05-12-2015 03:27 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  If I choose to touch the fire, I won't burn my fingers because I have become like gods. Only those who touch the fire will avoid evil consequence.
OK, but I don't believe this.

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06-12-2015, 12:03 AM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(04-12-2015 04:28 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(03-12-2015 07:20 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  What do you think the definition of Free Will is?
Hmm. I can do whatever I want?


How quaint.

'Free Will' is the illusion of choice.


(04-12-2015 04:28 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(03-12-2015 07:20 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Also, do the Mormons not believe the Serpent to be the Devil like other Christians?
LDS believe that Lucifer became Devil/Satan or fallen Son of God.


Lucifer, the Morningstar, and his popular conception as a fallen angel and former servant of god, comes almost entirely from John Milton's 'Paradise Lost' and have little to no basis in Judaism, Christianity, or their biblical cannons. Just another example of how Mormonism is poor Christian fan-fiction.



(04-12-2015 04:28 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(03-12-2015 07:20 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Because it was more so that Devil that gave humans moral agency. How do you have a moral value of good/evil if you don't know what good/evil is because you have no knowledge of it?
Satan un-knowingly helped God. It was God's plan that Adam and Eve could easily partake of the fruit. God provided the tree, God provided Satan(to temped). And they(Adam and Eve) wouldn't sin by disobeying the law. Those whose eyes were not opened yet could not sin(to do evil). They also could not do anything good(righteous). All their actions were neutral before they partook the fruit.
For example, you do not know many God's laws. But you are breaking them. You do not sin. You transgress the law. There is big difference. Big difference.


You are almost right here, but being right on accident or for the wrong reasons doesn't count.

A person's morality and ethics is limited by their knowledge. A typical adult human capable of average levels of empathy who has grown up in a post-industrial first world nation, if found to have been abusing or neglecting animals, is morally culpable for such abuse and neglect. However if that person suffered from some birth or genetic defect that stunted their mental capabilities, so that they were incapable of understanding the consequences of their actions or otherwise lacked empathy? Or if they grew up in the wilderness, and their necessary survival didn't allow for the possibility of compassion for other species? That person would be far less morally and ethically culpable.

That being said, even according to the story in Genesis (of which, Satan being the serpent is a Christian retcon of the story based on their Book of Revelations, the Jews have no conception of a Satan or that the serpent was anything but a talking snake), God is a liar. Even if this story is to be believed, it is an implicit endorsement of the doctrine that 'the ends justify the means'. Try following that ethical question down to it's logical conclusions.

So that being said, if our moral culpability is dependent upon our knowledge, how come god doesn't make both his existence and his desires absolutely unquestionably clear? His existence is so easily doubtable and dismissable, because of the complete lack of evidence in support of his existence, a problem which he could rectify instantly if he both existed and actually gave a shit. If we are in violation of his laws, and he has utterly failed to make those laws clear or understood (How come all the false religions? How come there is no evidence?), how can we at all be held accountable for our lack of understanding?

Simply put, we cannot. If we fail to understand a god's will or to live up to it's standards, it is the fault of the god and not us; especially if said god created the problem and has the power to rectify the situation instantly and at zero cost, but otherwise chooses not to fix the problem he created.

But no, tell us all again how this existence is all some test for a sadistic cosmic voyeur again, I'm sure it'll (not) be compelling for the umpteenth time.

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06-12-2015, 01:45 AM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(06-12-2015 12:03 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(04-12-2015 04:28 PM)Alla Wrote:  Hmm. I can do whatever I want?
How quaint.
'Free Will' is the illusion of choice.
Yes, sure. I really don't care what it is. Smile
(06-12-2015 12:03 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Lucifer, the Morningstar, and his popular conception as a fallen angel and former servant of god, comes almost entirely from John Milton's 'Paradise Lost' and have little to no basis in Judaism, Christianity, or their biblical cannons. Just another example of how Mormonism is poor Christian fan-fiction.
John Milton was correct that Lucifer became fallen angel. He was not correct that Lucifer was former servant of God. He got it wrong.
(06-12-2015 12:03 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  That being said, even according to the story in Genesis (of which, Satan being the serpent is a Christian retcon of the story based on their Book of Revelations, the Jews have no conception of a Satan or that the serpent was anything but a talking snake), God is a liar.
Jews are wrong. They have lost too many parts of the truth.
What did God lie about?
(06-12-2015 12:03 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Even if this story is to be believed, it is an implicit endorsement of the doctrine that 'the ends justify the means'. Try following that ethical question down to it's logical conclusions.
I don't understand. What exactly are you saying?
(06-12-2015 12:03 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  A person's morality and ethics is limited by their knowledge. A typical adult human capable of average levels of empathy who has grown up in a post-industrial first world nation, if found to have been abusing or neglecting animals, is morally culpable for such abuse and neglect. However if that person suffered from some birth or genetic defect that stunted their mental capabilities, so that they were incapable of understanding the consequences of their actions or otherwise lacked empathy? Or if they grew up in the wilderness, and their necessary survival didn't allow for the possibility of compassion for other species? That person would be far less morally and ethically culpable.
Yes. Of course.
(06-12-2015 12:03 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  So that being said, if our moral culpability is dependent upon our knowledge, how come god doesn't make both his existence and his desires absolutely unquestionably clear?
It also depends on our understanding of right and wrong.
I also want to remind you about one claim from the Bible: when there is no God's law, there is no sin.
When someone doesn't have knowledge and understanding of God's law, that person can not sin. He or she is not going to be judged according to the Law.
But this person can do something very important: to have new experiences and try to be a better person every day during the life time according to his or her knowledge and understanding of right and wrong. We don't need to have perfect knowledge of God for this. We don't need even to have faith in God for that or to belong to the only true religion.
(06-12-2015 12:03 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  how can we at all be held accountable for our lack of understanding?
We won't. But false religions might claim that we will.
(06-12-2015 12:03 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  If we fail to understand a god's will or to live up to it's standards, it is the fault of the god and not us
That is why we are not going to be accountable if and when we fail to understand God's Law. But any person can still progress and improve. And this is what very important.

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06-12-2015, 02:31 AM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(06-12-2015 01:45 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(06-12-2015 12:03 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  How quaint.
'Free Will' is the illusion of choice.
Yes, sure. I really don't care what it is. Smile


Evidently.


(06-12-2015 01:45 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(06-12-2015 12:03 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Lucifer, the Morningstar, and his popular conception as a fallen angel and former servant of god, comes almost entirely from John Milton's 'Paradise Lost' and have little to no basis in Judaism, Christianity, or their biblical cannons. Just another example of how Mormonism is poor Christian fan-fiction.
John Milton was correct that Lucifer became fallen angel. He was not correct that Lucifer was former servant of God. He got it wrong.


He wrote fiction, and yet his fiction forms the basis of many Christian's and Moron's beliefs on Satan. The fact this his fiction (read: entirely made up shit) was codified into your religion as fact aught to give you pause.

But who the fuck am I kidding? You lack the ability for honest self reflection.

Your profit codified known fiction as fact. Why?

ProTip: Because your profit was also writing fiction.


(06-12-2015 01:45 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(06-12-2015 12:03 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  That being said, even according to the story in Genesis (of which, Satan being the serpent is a Christian retcon of the story based on their Book of Revelations, the Jews have no conception of a Satan or that the serpent was anything but a talking snake), God is a liar.
Jews are wrong. They have lost too many parts of the truth.
What did God lie about?


God told them that eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge would kill them, while the serpent told them it would grant them knowledge. They supposedly ate the fruit, gained the knowledge, and didn't die.

So god lied to Adam and Eve, and the serpent (Satan or not) told them the truth.



(06-12-2015 01:45 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(06-12-2015 12:03 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Even if this story is to be believed, it is an implicit endorsement of the doctrine that 'the ends justify the means'. Try following that ethical question down to it's logical conclusions.
I don't understand. What exactly are you saying?


God lied. Actually, according to the stories, he lied multiple times. If you try to reconcile the stories of the Bible being true in the face of the complete lack of evidence in support of them, then the conclusion has to be that god hid all of the evidence after the fact, thus he is being even more deceitful. Factor in the fact that if he existed with the power popularly attributed to him, his continued obfuscation of his existence is even more deceitful.

Now the bullshit that often gets paraded out to justify this, while attempting to maintain belief in a god who is also benevolent, is that god 'works in mysterious ways'. There is always the assumption that god is acting out of kindness, for the greater good, no matter how demonstrably indifferent reality appears to be.

So what is the threshold of knowledge, of wisdom, that justifies rape? If it's all a apart of the greater good, and god has knowledge of this, how much more knowledge is required before we too can justify the existence of rape for the greater good? What is the great good that justifies war, murder, and genocide? What is the bigger picture? How is any of this terrible shit at all justifiable, if there is a being behind it all that actually cares? Is it even possible to justify any of it in light of a being capable of the unlimited alleviation of suffering at no cost to himself, that refuses to do so?

If you attempt to hand-wave away the evils of the world, and maintain a belief in a benevolent god that gives a shit, you are giving implicit approval of the idea that 'the ends justify the means'; regardless of the fact that an 'omnipotent' being cannot be omnipotent if he isn't able to enforce his will or desire without such shortcoming as suffering.



(06-12-2015 01:45 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(06-12-2015 12:03 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  A person's morality and ethics is limited by their knowledge. A typical adult human capable of average levels of empathy who has grown up in a post-industrial first world nation, if found to have been abusing or neglecting animals, is morally culpable for such abuse and neglect. However if that person suffered from some birth or genetic defect that stunted their mental capabilities, so that they were incapable of understanding the consequences of their actions or otherwise lacked empathy? Or if they grew up in the wilderness, and their necessary survival didn't allow for the possibility of compassion for other species? That person would be far less morally and ethically culpable.
Yes. Of course.


So if god fails to make his presence or his will known, because he fails to provide sufficient evidence for his will (or indeed, his very existence), is it the nonbelievers fault for their lack of belief? Would it be right to punish them for the failings of a supposedly omnipotent being?



(06-12-2015 01:45 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(06-12-2015 12:03 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  So that being said, if our moral culpability is dependent upon our knowledge, how come god doesn't make both his existence and his desires absolutely unquestionably clear?
It also depends on our understanding of right and wrong.


But an omnipotent being could make his moral code both known and undeniable, as undeniable as our hunger and need for sustenance; but he did not. An omnipotent being would, by definition, have the ability to eliminate all ambiguity and make his desires absolutely clear to everyone, and yet he has not. That aught to tell you something.



(06-12-2015 01:45 AM)Alla Wrote:  I also want to remind you about one claim from the Bible: when there is no God's law, there is no sin.


First, substantiate the existence of sin with objective evidence. Anything less is word salad.


(06-12-2015 01:45 AM)Alla Wrote:  When someone doesn't have knowledge and understanding of God's law, that person can not sin. He or she is not going to be judged according to the Law.
But this person can do something very important: to have new experiences and try to be a better person every day during the life time according to his or her knowledge and understanding of right and wrong. We don't need to have perfect knowledge of God for this. We don't need even to have faith in God for that or to belong to the only true religion.


In that case, why even have any Law? Why inform anyone? If we're all good enough on our own without interference, why intervene at all?

And of course, why should I take any of your potential answers to any of these questions seriously without evidence?


(06-12-2015 01:45 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(06-12-2015 12:03 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  how can we at all be held accountable for our lack of understanding?
We won't. But false religions might claim that we will.
(06-12-2015 12:03 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  If we fail to understand a god's will or to live up to it's standards, it is the fault of the god and not us
That is why we are not going to be accountable if and when we fail to understand God's Law. But any person can still progress and improve. And this is what very important.

A non-interventionist god who doesn't at all interfere in the natural world is, for all intents and purposes, identical to a non-existent god. Laugh out load

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06-12-2015, 11:02 AM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(06-12-2015 02:31 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  He wrote fiction, and yet his fiction forms the basis of many Christian's and Moron's beliefs on Satan. The fact this his fiction (read: entirely made up shit) was codified into your religion as fact aught to give you pause.
Not at all. As they say in Ukraine or Russia: "every fiction(or even joke) has some truth. So, there is no reason to pause.
(06-12-2015 02:31 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  ALLA:What did God lie about?
God told them that eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge would kill them, while the serpent told them it would grant them knowledge. They supposedly ate the fruit, gained the knowledge, and didn't die.
So god lied to Adam and Eve, and the serpent (Satan or not) told them the truth.
Satan told them some truth(as usually) with some lie(as usually). They did become like Gods knowing good and evil but they died the same moment they partook of the fruit. They couldn't live in the garden any more and they couldn't partake of the fruit of the tree of life. They couldn't be in presence of God any more. It calls spiritual death. Or "fallen state", or "mortality".
So, now you know that God didn't lie but Satan as always says lies mingled with scriptures(the truth).
(06-12-2015 02:31 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  So what is the threshold of knowledge, of wisdom, that justifies rape?
Nothing justifies rape. Someone chose to do evil because every person has moral agency - agency to choose between good and evil.
(06-12-2015 02:31 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  But an omnipotent being could make his moral code both known and undeniable, as undeniable as our hunger and need for sustenance; but he did not.
Yes, He could. Then you would have perfect knowledge of God. Then you couldn't have any excuses not to break His laws. It means that if broke only one law you would never be forgiven. Not all people are ready to make a covenant with God. It is better not to know about Him for them than to have this knowledge.
When we live by faith and make mistakes, break laws, we can be forgiven because we don't have perfect knowledge and perfect understanding[/b]
When there is perfect knowledge there is no room for growing any more.
We have to earn perfect knowledge by learning here. By growing, by gaining more experience of mortality.
(06-12-2015 02:31 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  In that case, why even have any Law? Why inform anyone? If we're all good enough on our own without interference, why intervene at all?
We are good but not enough.
(06-12-2015 02:31 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  And of course, why should I take any of your potential answers to any of these questions seriously without evidence?
You shouldn't if you can't.
(06-12-2015 02:31 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  A non-interventionist god who doesn't at all interfere in the natural world is, for all intents and purposes, identical to a non-existent god.
Yes, but true God interferes. There are many ways to do this. But your eyes are not opened enough, yet, to see(to understand) this.
And this is what saves you. It is better not to understand/not to know and fall then to have knowledge and understanding and fall any way.

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06-12-2015, 01:52 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(06-12-2015 02:31 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Your profit codified known fiction as fact. Why?

ProTip: Because your profit was also writing fiction.

You did that on purpose, right? Thumbsup

We have enough youth. How about looking for the Fountain of Smart?
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06-12-2015, 06:03 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(06-12-2015 01:52 PM)Thinkerbelle Wrote:  
(06-12-2015 02:31 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Your profit codified known fiction as fact. Why?

ProTip: Because your profit was also writing fiction.

You did that on purpose, right? Thumbsup
Of course, on purpose. But it is OK because his heart is in right place, I believe. Smile

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06-12-2015, 06:19 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
Claywise Wrote:Alla, I'm always impressed at your absolute certainty about all this, evidence or not. Yes, injustice and unfairness are part of life; but what's the alleged point (in your creative personal, quasi-Mormon theology) of your assertion that "We are here to learn all kind (sic) of evil"?
The point is this: we learn not only about evil but good also.
It says in the Book of Mormon that "it must be an opposition in all things". When there is good and evil we may be attracted by those powers. Then we can make a choice between good and evil.
Only those who have trials and have opportunities to choose between good and evil, and who learn to endure to the end and learn to overcome evil, can become Gods/like Gods.

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06-12-2015, 08:11 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(05-12-2015 02:11 PM)Alla Wrote:  Gods never talk.

FIXED.

In a manner of speaking.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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