Crime, guilt and free will
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06-12-2015, 10:53 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(06-12-2015 08:11 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 02:11 PM)Alla Wrote:  Gods never talk.

FIXED.

In a manner of speaking.

Smile

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07-12-2015, 12:13 AM (This post was last modified: 07-12-2015 05:17 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(06-12-2015 11:02 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(06-12-2015 02:31 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  He wrote fiction, and yet his fiction forms the basis of many Christian's and Moron's beliefs on Satan. The fact this his fiction (read: entirely made up shit) was codified into your religion as fact aught to give you pause.
Not at all. As they say in Ukraine or Russia: "every fiction(or even joke) has some truth. So, there is no reason to pause.


Holy fucking shit. What's next? Does Darth Vader actually exist in a galaxy far far away because of the fiction that is Star Wars?

You cannot be that stupid...


(06-12-2015 11:02 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(06-12-2015 02:31 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  ALLA:What did God lie about?
God told them that eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge would kill them, while the serpent told them it would grant them knowledge. They supposedly ate the fruit, gained the knowledge, and didn't die.
So god lied to Adam and Eve, and the serpent (Satan or not) told them the truth.
Satan told them some truth(as usually) with some lie(as usually). They did become like Gods knowing good and evil but they died the same moment they partook of the fruit. They couldn't live in the garden any more and they couldn't partake of the fruit of the tree of life. They couldn't be in presence of God any more. It calls spiritual death. Or "fallen state", or "mortality".
So, now you know that God didn't lie but Satan as always says lies mingled with scriptures(the truth).


Nope, doesn't work that way. 'Spiritual death' is not what the scripture says, that is a post-hoc rationalization invented out of whole cloth in an attempt to explain away the fact that in the story god does lie. Only if you assume that god cannot lie, or would not lie, do you then have to go looking for some reason to excuse or explain away this evident lie. Thus the creation, post hoc, of the idea of 'spiritual death'. Did god say 'spiritual death' in Genesis? No, he did not.

Even assuming your bullshit rationalization is true, it's still a lie of omission if god failed to specify what he meant or implied.


(06-12-2015 11:02 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(06-12-2015 02:31 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  So what is the threshold of knowledge, of wisdom, that justifies rape?
Nothing justifies rape. Someone chose to do evil because every person has moral agency - agency to choose between good and evil.


"Nothing justifies rape."

Does that include creation? Because if nothing justifies rape, your god has no justification for allowing it's existence. Thus your god is a moral monster for allowing it.


But this still doesn't get you out of the problem. God could have made us physiologically incapable of rape, by making us capable of asexual reproduction for instance. But he didn't. He chose to allow for rape to occur, he created the system that allows for rape, for the creation of humans that have the biologically fueled desire to rape. All of this happened under his watch, as a direct result of his actions, presumably for a plan that involves a greater good to be had.

So what is the greater good? How come he's incapable of achieving this greater good without rape?

If he's incapable of achieveing this greater good without allowing rape, then he's not omnipotent.

If he has the power to stop rape, but doesn't care enough to prevent rape, then he's malevolent.


If I saw a rape about to take place, I would intervene to stop it. So that makes me either more powerful than your god, more benevolent than your god, or both. Why the fuck do you insist on worshiping the monster you do instead?


(06-12-2015 11:02 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(06-12-2015 02:31 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  But an omnipotent being could make his moral code both known and undeniable, as undeniable as our hunger and need for sustenance; but he did not.
Yes, He could. Then you would have perfect knowledge of God. Then you couldn't have any excuses not to break His laws. It means that if broke only one law you would never be forgiven. Not all people are ready to make a covenant with God. It is better not to know about Him for them than to have this knowledge.
When we live by faith and make mistakes, break laws, we can be forgiven because we don't have perfect knowledge and perfect understanding[/b]
When there is perfect knowledge there is no room for growing any more.
We have to earn perfect knowledge by learning here. By growing, by gaining more experience of mortality.


Ignoring for the moment that everything there is nothing but presuppositional nonsense, it's still nonsensical tripe.


How would having perfect understanding of 'the rules' necessarily equate to 'perfect understanding of god'? It doesn't. Understanding that Pythagorean Theorem doesn't give one perfect understanding of math, let alone the universe.

Why is your god incapable of forgiving someone who actually understands his fucking rules? How is that anything but not entirely fucked up? What kind of sadist does that make your god?

I'll leave that there, as I get the distinct feeling that you're just prattling canned Mormon dogma with zero understanding of what you are actually saying, because you're making huge jumps in logic that you simply are not adequately or coherently justifying.


(06-12-2015 11:02 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(06-12-2015 02:31 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  In that case, why even have any Law? Why inform anyone? If we're all good enough on our own without interference, why intervene at all?
We are good but not enough.


So, why didn't he make us good enough?

Is he not capable of making us good enough?

Or is he simply a sadist that desires that we not be good enough, so that he has an excuse to punish us for failing to live up to his unreasonable standards?


(06-12-2015 11:02 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(06-12-2015 02:31 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  And of course, why should I take any of your potential answers to any of these questions seriously without evidence?
You shouldn't if you can't.


I don't take your answers seriously.

The point of my questions is to illustrate to you that you shouldn't take your answers seriously either.


See Also: The Socratic Method


(06-12-2015 11:02 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(06-12-2015 02:31 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  A non-interventionist god who doesn't at all interfere in the natural world is, for all intents and purposes, identical to a non-existent god.
Yes, but true God interferes.


Prove it. Evidence or GTFO.


(06-12-2015 11:02 AM)Alla Wrote:  There are many ways to do this. But your eyes are not opened enough, yet, to see(to understand) this.


Bullshit. If evidence for belief is only available to those who already believe, then your god is a deceitful asshole.

If he is aware of this, that his lack of evidence will necessarily cause those honestly seeking for the truth to reject him because from a neutral observer he evidently does not exist, then your god is a cosmic sadist and supremely malevolent.

So which is it? Is your god an evil asshole? Or is he a weakling incapable of providing evidence for himself to skeptics?


(06-12-2015 11:02 AM)Alla Wrote:  And this is what saves you. It is better not to understand/not to know and fall then to have knowledge and understanding and fall any way.


No, that's still fucked up. If it's better to fail but not understand why, then clearly the best course of action would be for your god to have never interfered at all. He should never intervene, he should never have any prophets, he should never attempt to make his will known; because only by doing so does he himself open up the doors to greater failure.

Now let's not forget of course that this is god failing miserably by the standards and rules he himself created.

If he created the rules, he should have the power to change them.

Your god is no more impressive, morally or ethically, than some kid sitting behind a computer and playing The Sims.

[Image: sims-gallery1_1414242i.jpg]

Why the fuck should any of us take you seriously?

How the hell do you take yourself seriously?

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07-12-2015, 01:03 AM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
Before the child molestation charges...

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NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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07-12-2015, 04:36 AM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(07-12-2015 12:13 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Holy fucking shit. What's next? Does Darth Vader actually exist in a galaxy far far away because of the fiction that is Star Wars?

[Image: lackOfFaith_StarWars.jpg]

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07-12-2015, 05:12 AM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(07-12-2015 04:36 AM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  
(07-12-2015 12:13 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Holy fucking shit. What's next? Does Darth Vader actually exist in a galaxy far far away because of the fiction that is Star Wars?

[Image: lackOfFaith_StarWars.jpg]




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07-12-2015, 06:41 AM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(07-12-2015 12:13 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(06-12-2015 11:02 AM)Alla Wrote:  There are many ways to do this. But your eyes are not opened enough, yet, to see(to understand) this.


Bullshit. If evidence for belief is only available to those who already believe, then your god is a deceitful asshole.

If he is aware of this, that his lack of evidence will necessarily cause those honestly seeking for the truth to reject him because from a neutral observer he evidently does not exist, then your god is a cosmic sadist and supremely malevolent.

So which is it? Is your god an evil asshole? Or is he a weakling incapable of providing evidence for himself to skeptics?



Why the fuck should any of us take you seriously?

How the hell do you take yourself seriously?

Alla's incapable of a single critical thought of her religious beliefs, she admits this god is purposely deceiving and hiding the truth from people. The only way you can stop god from hiding the Truth is to believe the Truth- which this god is purposely hiding from people.

She blithely ignores this vicious circularity, she blithely ignores that a god that deceives will not make an exception in her case. How could an omnipotent god fail to deceive when that is his modus operandi?

Every person that manages to understand the Truth, despite this god is a testament to its failure, it's lack of power.

If the god of Joey the Joker was real, then this church wouldn't be slowly declining, Joey the Joker's god can't even retain the fools that supposedly got it right.

But maybe Joey the Joker didn't get it right. Gasp

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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07-12-2015, 09:17 AM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
I believe the question that must be answered is "Why did God give man free will in the first place?" Why is this free will so important that God would allow people to use their free will for evil?
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07-12-2015, 09:33 AM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(07-12-2015 09:17 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I believe the question that must be answered is "Why did God give man free will in the first place?" Why is this free will so important that God would allow people to use their free will for evil?
God doesn't give us free will. He gives us moral agency - freedom to choose between good(eternal life) and evil(death/hell).
Why? Good question.
The answer: Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 2:
16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself
Why is it so important that we act for ourselves? If we can not act for ourselves we are slaves. There is no joy or happiness in slavery.
When we are forced to do good it doesn't bring us any joy. When we do good by acting for ourselves it brings us true joy
Bok of Mormon 2 Nephi 2:
25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy

I believe that those words are the truth(from God)

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07-12-2015, 09:38 AM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
That is why Jesus said to carry someone's bag for an extra mile when or if we are forced to carry it for the first mile. For the first mile we are forced to serve someone. We can not have joy. Extra mile is when we act for ourselves, we serve someone because we choose to do so. It brings us true joy to [b]serve someone when it is our own choice.[/b]
Simple truth.

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07-12-2015, 09:40 AM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(07-12-2015 04:36 AM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  
(07-12-2015 12:13 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Holy fucking shit. What's next? Does Darth Vader actually exist in a galaxy far far away because of the fiction that is Star Wars?

[Image: lackOfFaith_StarWars.jpg]

I really like this one. Smile

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