Crime, guilt and free will
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07-12-2015, 09:42 AM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(07-12-2015 09:33 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(07-12-2015 09:17 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I believe the question that must be answered is "Why did God give man free will in the first place?" Why is this free will so important that God would allow people to use their free will for evil?
God doesn't give us free will. He gives us moral agency - freedom to choose between good(eternal life) and evil(death/hell).
Why? Good question.
The answer: Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 2:
16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself
Why is it so important that we act for ourselves? If we can not act for ourselves we are slaves. There is no joy or happiness in slavery.
When we are forced to do good it doesn't bring us any joy. When we do good by acting for ourselves it brings us true joy
Bok of Mormon 2 Nephi 2:
25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy

I believe that those words are the truth(from God)
Even though I am not a Mormon I agree for the most part. Free will is the freedom to choose to love and obey God or to rebel against him. Animals don't have that freedom. They have to obey God. Thus animals cannot sin. If we did not have free will we would be slaves. We would be like a wind up doll. You pull the string and the doll says "I love you". There is no meaning to it. Compare that to an actual loving spouse who looks you in the eyes and tell you "I love you". That has meaning because love is a choice. God doesn't want wind up dolls.
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07-12-2015, 10:05 AM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(07-12-2015 09:17 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I believe the question that must be answered is "Why did God give man free will in the first place?" Why is this free will so important that God would allow people to use their free will for evil?

I try to get at that a lot, but you get different responses from different sects or just people. That's why I felt there a point to ask Alla was a believe in Satan as the serpent & the fallen Angel a thing still in LDS school and her thought.

That's generally a point I don't think I've seen an answer around. A point is, why are humans forced to be born humans and exist through the suffering of the toils on Earth and not just all instantly have been angels? Angels, are they slaves or do they have free will/moral agency? Because it seems pretty much like most people who believe in fallen angels have to say they have some concept of that. Then what makes the point of humans being special special?

The "testing people" idea sometimes brought up doesn't jive if they also believe in Fallen Angels. That already happened with angels so it doesn't make sense as any distinction with Humans & angels. There is several other manner this can all go down.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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07-12-2015, 10:36 AM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(07-12-2015 09:17 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I believe the question that must be answered is "Why did God give man free will in the first place?" Why is this free will so important that God would allow people to use their free will for evil?

Before we ask that question, wouldn't it make sense to ask WHETHER there is a god at all and whether that god actually did give humanity free will? It's a bit of a loaded question otherwise, isn't it?

(Also, I'd like a coherent, working definition of free will. All the ones I've encountered aren't very coherent.)
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07-12-2015, 10:40 AM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(07-12-2015 10:36 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(07-12-2015 09:17 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I believe the question that must be answered is "Why did God give man free will in the first place?" Why is this free will so important that God would allow people to use their free will for evil?

Before we ask that question, wouldn't it make sense to ask WHETHER there is a god at all and whether that god actually did give humanity free will? It's a bit of a loaded question otherwise, isn't it?

(Also, I'd like a coherent, working definition of free will. All the ones I've encountered aren't very coherent.)
Well the op of the thread is asking a question assuming there is a God. So the answers should be as such.
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07-12-2015, 10:58 AM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(07-12-2015 10:36 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  (Also, I'd like a coherent, working definition of free will. All the ones I've encountered aren't very coherent.)
Forget about free will. Moral agency(freedom to choose between good(life) and evil(death)) - this is what we all have.

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07-12-2015, 11:00 AM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(07-12-2015 10:36 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  Before we ask that question, wouldn't it make sense to ask WHETHER there is a god at all and whether that god actually did give humanity free will? It's a bit of a loaded question otherwise, isn't it?
Of course, it would make perfect sense.

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07-12-2015, 11:00 AM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(07-12-2015 10:40 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(07-12-2015 10:36 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  Before we ask that question, wouldn't it make sense to ask WHETHER there is a god at all and whether that god actually did give humanity free will? It's a bit of a loaded question otherwise, isn't it?

(Also, I'd like a coherent, working definition of free will. All the ones I've encountered aren't very coherent.)
Well the op of the thread is asking a question assuming there is a God. So the answers should be as such.

Wait, we're on page 6 and we haven't been derailed from the OP yet?

What is this place? I'VE STUMBLED ONTO AN ALTERNATIVE UNIVERSE'S INTERNET WHERE TTA HAS AN ATTENTION SPAN!

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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07-12-2015, 11:05 AM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(07-12-2015 11:00 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(07-12-2015 10:40 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Well the op of the thread is asking a question assuming there is a God. So the answers should be as such.

Wait, we're on page 6 and we haven't been derailed from the OP yet?

What is this place? I'VE STUMBLED ONTO AN ALTERNATIVE UNIVERSE'S INTERNET WHERE TTA HAS AN ATTENTION SPAN!
Bwahahaha
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07-12-2015, 12:55 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(05-12-2015 02:11 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(05-12-2015 01:04 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  In the past Alla has avoided a position on "free will". She talks of "moral agency" not free will. They are not the same and moral agency does not imply free will but it may imply "free won't".

WOW! I am impressed, GirlyMan. Smile
P.S. Moral agency implies that we are free to choose between good and evil. That is all. It doesn't imply anything else.
Gods never talk about free will.

When does he talk about Moral Agency?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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07-12-2015, 01:08 PM
RE: Crime, guilt and free will
(07-12-2015 12:55 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  When does he talk about Moral Agency?
When He has new children. He talks to them about moral agency.
When His children come to earth(s), then He talks about it.

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