Crimea Referendum
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06-03-2014, 08:56 PM
Crimea Referendum
Doesn't this make you laugh? So much for the whole "self-determination is everyone's right" thing that I seem to remember the UK claiming in regards to the Falklands.

I guess the approach is different when you know the results won't go your way.

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06-03-2014, 09:08 PM
RE: Crimea Referendum
Look, Hughsie, a mature and strong person, propagates the rules when they are favorable, and leads in the advocacy to change them when they turn disadvantageous. Many, if not the majority of us, are realist. We may not like the way it is handled, but after a while, we don't feel that bad about the result, right ?

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06-03-2014, 09:42 PM
RE: Crimea Referendum
(06-03-2014 08:56 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  Doesn't this make you laugh? So much for the whole "self-determination is everyone's right" thing that I seem to remember the UK claiming in regards to the Falklands.

I guess the approach is different when you know the results won't go your way.


Bad comparison. The Falklands were part of the UK; Crimea is not part of the Russian Federation.

Try again.

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06-03-2014, 09:44 PM
RE: Crimea Referendum
(06-03-2014 09:42 PM)Chas Wrote:  Bad comparison. The Falklands were part of the UK; Crimea is not part of the Russian Federation.

Try again.

Irrelevant. We made a huge thing about how self-determination is the right of all peoples. That works both ways, if they decide to stay as part of a country then surely they have equal right to decide to leave a country. Otherwise it isn't self-determination at all.

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10-03-2014, 08:27 AM
RE: Crimea Referendum
(06-03-2014 09:42 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-03-2014 08:56 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  Doesn't this make you laugh? So much for the whole "self-determination is everyone's right" thing that I seem to remember the UK claiming in regards to the Falklands.

I guess the approach is different when you know the results won't go your way.


Bad comparison. The Falklands were part of the UK; Crimea is not part of the Russian Federation.

Try again.

60% of the Crimean population would say otherwise.

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10-03-2014, 08:38 AM
RE: Crimea Referendum
That's funny, Hughsie; if I recall correctly, the votes in the Falklands were only held after the foreign military occupation ended. Or were you thinking that a referendum during the Argentine invasion (with foreign observers barred and native media suppressed) would have been possessed of any democratic legitimacy?

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10-03-2014, 08:41 AM
RE: Crimea Referendum
I have the distinct feeling that Putin would see the old Tsardom of Russia rebuilt regardless of referendums.

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10-03-2014, 09:04 AM
RE: Crimea Referendum
(10-03-2014 08:38 AM)cjlr Wrote:  That's funny, Hughsie; if I recall correctly, the votes in the Falklands were only held after the foreign military occupation ended. Or were you thinking that a referendum during the Argentine invasion (with foreign observers barred and native media suppressed) would have been possessed of any democratic legitimacy?

The difference between the Falklands and the Crimea is that Falklands have always been British. I mean yea they were Argentinian for a short while, but the people that lived there were British and had been for some time and very much considered themselves to be British.
Ukraine only came into existence in 1991 and the Crimea has a fairly decent history as being part of Russia. A decent amount of the population would favor Russia over Ukraine. I don't see why this referendum is a bad thing and I don't see why that if the population want it, the Crimea shouldn't be integrated back into Russia.

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10-03-2014, 12:05 PM
RE: Crimea Referendum
(10-03-2014 09:04 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  I don't see why this referendum is a bad thing...

There is one great stonking hell of a difference between a referendum and this referendum.

Free and fair elections don't generally bar foreign observers and don't generally take place under the thoughtful auspices of a foreign occupation.

(10-03-2014 09:04 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  ... and I don't see why that if the population want it, the Crimea shouldn't be integrated back into Russia.

Problem with that is, this farcical debacle has almost nothing to do with a genuine sentiment.

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10-03-2014, 05:37 PM
RE: Crimea Referendum
(10-03-2014 12:05 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(10-03-2014 09:04 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  I don't see why this referendum is a bad thing...

There is one great stonking hell of a difference between a referendum and this referendum.

Free and fair elections don't generally bar foreign observers and don't generally take place under the thoughtful auspices of a foreign occupation.

(10-03-2014 09:04 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  ... and I don't see why that if the population want it, the Crimea shouldn't be integrated back into Russia.

Problem with that is, this farcical debacle has almost nothing to do with a genuine sentiment.

I realize it's all political. Russia do only want the Crimea for the naval bases and such. BUT the West don't want the Crimea integrated back into Russia for political concerns also.
The fact that when the Ukraine was formed it was the third largest nuclear power in the world (more than the UK, France and China combined), and it gave up those weapons to receive assurances from Russia, the EU and the US that Ukraine would maintain it's border integrate is irrelevant. Ukraine forgot the golden rule when it comes to diplomacy, that it's only worth while so long as it's convenient.
It's no longer convenient for Russia to honor that agreement just as much as it's no longer convenient for the west to take military action against Russia and hold up their end of the agreement because of fear of starting effectively ww3.
It's also not convenient for the west that Russia gains this strategic bit of land and that it remains in the Ukraine. And of course it sure as shit aint convenient for Kiev...
It's all political. Of course it is.
But what I'm saying is, the vast majority of the population in the Crimea DO want to be integrated back into Russia. I understand your pov that Russia is occupying the Crimea BUT like I just said, a vast majority do want to be integrated back into Russia. It wouldn't be a far fetched thing that this referendum succeeds.

And besides, do you really believe that if Russian troops weren't occupying the Crimea that if they were to have this referendum that the west and particularly Kiev would allow the Crimea to be integrated back into Russia?
Kiev is already heavily denouncing the referendum, which is political by the way and ignoring what the people want, and asking the EU and US to do something.

tl;dr, yes shit is political but the people of Crimea do want to be integrated back into Russia and that's all that matters so fuck the politics and let them join back with Russia.

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