Crimea Referendum
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11-03-2014, 04:38 PM
RE: Crimea Referendum
(10-03-2014 08:38 AM)cjlr Wrote:  That's funny, Hughsie; if I recall correctly, the votes in the Falklands were only held after the foreign military occupation ended. Or were you thinking that a referendum during the Argentine invasion (with foreign observers barred and native media suppressed) would have been possessed of any democratic legitimacy?

This is an excellent point and good comparison. If during general peaceful times the crimea people were adamant they wanted revolution and independence then a referendum would be legitimate. Likewise if Russians withdrew and the Crimean s demanded unanimously that they wanted the Russian army back to defend them from persecution a referendum may be legitimate.
I dont see either of these scenarios playing out.

Looks to me like your example of the Argentinians demanding a referendum after their invasion of the Falklands when any outside observers are banned. Worse than that imagine if the Argentinians printed much more voting cards than people who are eligible to vote ? Do you smell a rat ?

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14-03-2014, 11:09 PM
RE: Crimea Referendum
(10-03-2014 08:27 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(06-03-2014 09:42 PM)Chas Wrote:  Bad comparison. The Falklands were part of the UK; Crimea is not part of the Russian Federation.

Try again.

60% of the Crimean population would say otherwise.

Agreed. (actually, its a little closer to 65% these days, but who's counting? Wink)

Crimea used to be part of Russia... for a couple centuries. A large majority in Crimea essentially want to succeed from Ukraine. The Crimean Parliament already voted to join back with Russia. The majority of the Crimean population wants to rejoin with Russia. These are the facts.

Where exactly is the confusion? Why is Obama reacting like an ill-informed buffoon? And as someone else asked - Why the double-standard with regards to the will of the people?
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15-03-2014, 03:16 AM
RE: Crimea Referendum
(14-03-2014 11:09 PM)TheBear Wrote:  Why the double-standard with regards to the will of the people?

There's been a lot of replies addressing this exact question. It's not a double standard. It's that this so called referendum is a farce.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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15-03-2014, 09:44 AM (This post was last modified: 15-03-2014 09:48 AM by TheBear.)
RE: Crimea Referendum
(15-03-2014 03:16 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(14-03-2014 11:09 PM)TheBear Wrote:  Why the double-standard with regards to the will of the people?

There's been a lot of replies addressing this exact question. It's not a double standard. It's that this so called referendum is a farce.

The will of the overwhelming majority of the Crimean population want to break off from Ukraine and rejoin Russia.

The double-standard I'm talking about is that the will of the people means something here, but means nothing over there.
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15-03-2014, 10:00 AM
RE: Crimea Referendum
(15-03-2014 09:44 AM)TheBear Wrote:  
(15-03-2014 03:16 AM)morondog Wrote:  There's been a lot of replies addressing this exact question. It's not a double standard. It's that this so called referendum is a farce.

The will of the overwhelming majority of the Crimean population want to break off from Ukraine and rejoin Russia.

Citation needed.

At no point during the existence of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea were secessionist and annexationist parties ever more than a footnote in the Crimean parliament. Opinion polls showed those were never strong sentiments.

It's stunningly facetious and almost impossibly naive to equate military occupation with self-determination.

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15-03-2014, 10:10 AM
RE: Crimea Referendum
(15-03-2014 09:44 AM)TheBear Wrote:  
(15-03-2014 03:16 AM)morondog Wrote:  There's been a lot of replies addressing this exact question. It's not a double standard. It's that this so called referendum is a farce.

The will of the overwhelming majority of the Crimean population want to break off from Ukraine and rejoin Russia.

The double-standard I'm talking about is that the will of the people means something here, but means nothing over there.

The 'referendum is not legal. It is being imposed by a foreign country.

I don't know where you live, but what if the soldiers of a neighboring country came in and occupied some of your country and held a referendum?

Think about it.

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15-03-2014, 10:11 AM
RE: Crimea Referendum
(15-03-2014 10:00 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(15-03-2014 09:44 AM)TheBear Wrote:  The will of the overwhelming majority of the Crimean population want to break off from Ukraine and rejoin Russia.

Citation needed.

At no point during the existence of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea were secessionist and annexationist parties ever more than a footnote in the Crimean parliament. Opinion polls showed those were never strong sentiments.

It's stunningly facetious and almost impossibly naive to equate military occupation with self-determination.

Yeah - free will at gunpoint.

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15-03-2014, 10:14 AM
RE: Crimea Referendum
(11-03-2014 03:45 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(11-03-2014 03:39 PM)Chas Wrote:  There is no legality under the Ukrainian constitution of a referendum for separation.

Which is barely even a technicality...

There's no such provision in Canada or the UK either, but a legitimate democratic state is willing to engage with separatists who might control a regional parliament.

Self-determination is one thing - appalling cynicism of most global actors aside, recognition of such is justifiable cause for outside intervention in international law.

The pathetic sham now ongoing in Crimea is entirely another.


A technicality like the one that started the American Civil War?

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15-03-2014, 10:24 AM
RE: Crimea Referendum
(15-03-2014 10:14 AM)Chas Wrote:  A technicality like the one that started the American Civil War?

That was unilateral...

My supposition is that in an open and democratic process, constitutional strictures would not be imposed on self-determination.

Relevant examples are perhaps Quebec, Catalonia, or Scotland. All three have independence movements (though well short of clear majority support). Neither Canada, Spain, or the UK have legal provisions for secession - but of one of those areas were to have clear elections and/or referenda in favour of secession, all relevant bodies would be willing to negotiate and come to some arrangement.

I mean, sure, I think those independence movements are stupid (and crass and short-sighted and uncomfortably nationalistic), but nobody's ever said that a majority public sentiment would be overruled by a technicality.

Not that "self-determination" isn't a terribly flawed and simplistic idea to take as an overruling influence, but...

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15-03-2014, 10:28 AM
RE: Crimea Referendum
(15-03-2014 10:11 AM)Chas Wrote:  Yeah - free will at gunpoint.

Ah, but Chas, clearly the disappearance absence of dissenting voices is entirely unrelated to the large numbers of heavily armed occupying forces self-defense militias who just so happen to have invaded acted to maintain law and order...

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