Crimea Referendum
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
15-03-2014, 04:35 PM
RE: Crimea Referendum
Like I've already said; why not try to agree with Russia that if they pull their troops out no Western or Ukrainian forces will try and enter or interfere in any way with Crimea?

That way Crimea can have it's referendum without Eastern or Western outside influence. The West and Kiev aren't against a referendum because of the presence of Russian troops it seems, they are against it altogether. That's what makes me cynical.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-03-2014, 05:30 PM
RE: Crimea Referendum
(15-03-2014 10:24 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(15-03-2014 10:14 AM)Chas Wrote:  A technicality like the one that started the American Civil War?

That was unilateral...

My supposition is that in an open and democratic process, constitutional strictures would not be imposed on self-determination.

Relevant examples are perhaps Quebec, Catalonia, or Scotland. All three have independence movements (though well short of clear majority support). Neither Canada, Spain, or the UK have legal provisions for secession - but of one of those areas were to have clear elections and/or referenda in favour of secession, all relevant bodies would be willing to negotiate and come to some arrangement.

I mean, sure, I think those independence movements are stupid (and crass and short-sighted and uncomfortably nationalistic), but nobody's ever said that a majority public sentiment would be overruled by a technicality.

Not that "self-determination" isn't a terribly flawed and simplistic idea to take as an overruling influence, but...

Either we have laws or we have anarchy.

Fuck anarchy.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-03-2014, 05:34 PM
RE: Crimea Referendum
(15-03-2014 04:35 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  Like I've already said; why not try to agree with Russia that if they pull their troops out no Western or Ukrainian forces will try and enter or interfere in any way with Crimea?

That way Crimea can have it's referendum without Eastern or Western outside influence. The West and Kiev aren't against a referendum because of the presence of Russian troops it seems, they are against it altogether. That's what makes me cynical.

So, armed troops at their border who have already invaded their country is not interference?

You are really naive.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-03-2014, 07:55 PM (This post was last modified: 15-03-2014 08:10 PM by Hughsie.)
RE: Crimea Referendum
(15-03-2014 05:34 PM)Chas Wrote:  So, armed troops at their border who have already invaded their country is not interference?

You are really naive.

So you wish to rule out any possibility of any referendum there ever, by rejecting any possible way of holding one?

Hmmm, that sounds rather unfair to me, not to mention convenient for anyone who desperately wants Crimea not to join Russia and fears that a fair referendum would show they want to. Consider

Besides, The Falklands were under British control when they had their referendum. I don't remember the UK or US rejecting that one.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-03-2014, 08:08 PM
RE: Crimea Referendum
(15-03-2014 07:55 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(15-03-2014 05:34 PM)Chas Wrote:  So, armed troops at their border who have already invaded their country is not interference?

You are really naive.

So you wish to rule out any possibility of any referendum there ever, by rejecting any possible way of holding one?

Hmmm, that sounds rather unfair to me, not to mention convenient for anyone who desperately wants Crimea not to join Russia and fears that a fair referendum would show they want to. Consider

I think you are focusing a bit too much on the referendum and a bit too little on the whole military hanging around thing...

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-03-2014, 08:09 PM
RE: Crimea Referendum
(15-03-2014 08:08 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  I think you are focusing a bit too much on the referendum and a bit too little on the whole military hanging around thing...

This is a thread specifically on the topic of the referendum you know. Dodgy

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-03-2014, 08:17 PM
RE: Crimea Referendum
(15-03-2014 08:09 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(15-03-2014 08:08 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  I think you are focusing a bit too much on the referendum and a bit too little on the whole military hanging around thing...

This is a thread specifically on the topic of the referendum you know. Dodgy

Yes but the referendum is made invalid when russian troops are strong arming any opposition to the vote. It would be like if scottish thugs invaded manchester and held a vote for manchester to secede from england and only let Pro-scottish people vote.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-03-2014, 08:18 PM
RE: Crimea Referendum
(15-03-2014 08:09 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(15-03-2014 08:08 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  I think you are focusing a bit too much on the referendum and a bit too little on the whole military hanging around thing...

This is a thread specifically on the topic of the referendum you know. Dodgy

It is a factor affecting the possibility and/or effectiveness, fairness and legitimacy of any held referendums, especially when Russia, the own of the aforementioned factor, stands to gain.

As such, it merits discussion within the topic of referendum.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-03-2014, 08:21 PM
RE: Crimea Referendum
(15-03-2014 08:17 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Yes but the referendum is made invalid when russian troops are strong arming any opposition to the vote. It would be like if scottish thugs invaded manchester and held a vote for manchester to secede from england and only let Pro-scottish people vote.

That's why I suggested the Russians pull out (with guarantees that no Western or Ukrainian forces try to enter or interfere) and the UN can observe a fair referendum.

People seem to have an issue with that too though.

What I wanna know is under what circumstances do people think they should be allowed to hold a referendum? If there are none then the principle of self-determination is dead, no people's anywhere could hold such a referendum without any troops from either side being at least in the vicinity of the place.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-03-2014, 09:35 PM
RE: Crimea Referendum
(15-03-2014 08:21 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(15-03-2014 08:17 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Yes but the referendum is made invalid when russian troops are strong arming any opposition to the vote. It would be like if scottish thugs invaded manchester and held a vote for manchester to secede from england and only let Pro-scottish people vote.

That's why I suggested the Russians pull out (with guarantees that no Western or Ukrainian forces try to enter or interfere) and the UN can observe a fair referendum.

People seem to have an issue with that too though.

What I wanna know is under what circumstances do people think they should be allowed to hold a referendum? If there are none then the principle of self-determination is dead, no people's anywhere could hold such a referendum without any troops from either side being at least in the vicinity of the place.

Well considering before the russians invaded the secessionist faction was rather small I doubt there would be an instance where a pro-secession vote is considered legitimate. At least not right now.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: