Crimea Referendum
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15-03-2014, 10:05 PM
RE: Crimea Referendum
(15-03-2014 07:55 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(15-03-2014 05:34 PM)Chas Wrote:  So, armed troops at their border who have already invaded their country is not interference?

You are really naive.

So you wish to rule out any possibility of any referendum there ever, by rejecting any possible way of holding one?

Hmmm, that sounds rather unfair to me, not to mention convenient for anyone who desperately wants Crimea not to join Russia and fears that a fair referendum would show they want to. Consider

Besides, The Falklands were under British control when they had their referendum. I don't remember the UK or US rejecting that one.

Your comparison with the Falklands is still ass backwards.

Had the referendum been under Argentine occupation, then it would be a valid comparison.

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15-03-2014, 10:08 PM
RE: Crimea Referendum
(15-03-2014 08:21 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(15-03-2014 08:17 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Yes but the referendum is made invalid when russian troops are strong arming any opposition to the vote. It would be like if scottish thugs invaded manchester and held a vote for manchester to secede from england and only let Pro-scottish people vote.

That's why I suggested the Russians pull out (with guarantees that no Western or Ukrainian forces try to enter or interfere) and the UN can observe a fair referendum.

People seem to have an issue with that too though.

What I wanna know is under what circumstances do people think they should be allowed to hold a referendum? If there are none then the principle of self-determination is dead, no people's anywhere could hold such a referendum without any troops from either side being at least in the vicinity of the place.

When the Russians can be prevented from re-invading Crimea if the vote goes against them.

When they understand that there will be a lot of dead Russians if they do.

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15-03-2014, 10:26 PM
RE: Crimea Referendum
Quote:At no point during the existence of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea were secessionist and annexationist parties ever more than a footnote in the Crimean parliament. Opinion polls showed those were never strong sentiments.

True, but the majority of the PEOPLE in Crimea today, want to secede from Ukraine.

All that said, I must point out that this means treaties are meaningless to them ... the 1992 Federation Treaty, specifically.
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15-03-2014, 10:29 PM
RE: Crimea Referendum
(15-03-2014 10:26 PM)TheBear Wrote:  
Quote:At no point during the existence of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea were secessionist and annexationist parties ever more than a footnote in the Crimean parliament. Opinion polls showed those were never strong sentiments.

True, but the majority of the PEOPLE in Crimea today, want to secede from Ukraine.

All that said, I must point out that this means treaties are meaningless to them ... the 1992 Federation Treaty, specifically.

Gee I wonder why I am skeptical of a sudden reversal of that opinion when armed russian troops are de facto occupying the area.

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15-03-2014, 10:39 PM
RE: Crimea Referendum
(15-03-2014 10:29 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(15-03-2014 10:26 PM)TheBear Wrote:  True, but the majority of the PEOPLE in Crimea today, want to secede from Ukraine.

All that said, I must point out that this means treaties are meaningless to them ... the 1992 Federation Treaty, specifically.

Gee I wonder why I am skeptical of a sudden reversal of that opinion when armed russian troops are de facto occupying the area.

That's because I forgot about that treaty. Now I remember it. So, I have to weigh that into the equation. It alters my perspective, somewhat.

Unlike lockstep, tow-the-line, party zealots/cheerleaders, I'm able to change my views based on all the facts. Smile
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17-03-2014, 04:05 PM
RE: Crimea Referendum
Hmmm, much as I think Crimea should be allowed to self-determine I'm a little dubious of a referendum where the question apparently doesn't have an option to maintain the status-quo.

I suppose it's vaguely amusing to see probably the two most blatantly corrupt nations on the world stage (US and Russia) try and out-do each other on this. Big Grin

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17-03-2014, 04:15 PM
RE: Crimea Referendum
(17-03-2014 04:05 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  I suppose it's vaguely amusing to see probably the two most blatantly corrupt nations on the world stage (US and Russia) try and out-do each other on this. Big Grin

US is light years ahead of a lot of places including Russia, IMO. They have an independent judiciary, a free press and a whole bunch of other stuff. I bet ordinary Russians don't know much about what their smarmy president gets up to. And the treatment of Pussy Riot shows how dissidents are dealt with too... Obama would never get away with that kinda police state shit, despite the powers he has... or at least he might in the short term but there'd definitely be backlash and he couldn't just quell it by being fucking scary as hell like Putin can.

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17-03-2014, 04:29 PM
RE: Crimea Referendum
(17-03-2014 04:05 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  Hmmm, much as I think Crimea should be allowed to self-determine I'm a little dubious of a referendum where the question apparently doesn't have an option to maintain the status-quo.

Gee, now you're a little dubious?

Dodgy

(17-03-2014 04:05 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  I suppose it's vaguely amusing to see probably the two most blatantly corrupt nations on the world stage (US and Russia) try and out-do each other on this. Big Grin

If by most corrupt you mean, I dunno, second-worst in the OECD, then I guess that's valid.

Compared to Russia? Seriously? Bro, do you even politics?

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17-03-2014, 05:13 PM
RE: Crimea Referendum
(17-03-2014 04:29 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Gee, now you're a little dubious?

Dodgy

Dubious of that wording and a Russian influenced referendum (which I never denied to be). I'm still not against allowing Crimea to self-determine, and I'm still hugely suspicious of the fact that I haven't seen a single Western politician advocate a fair referendum, they're all again any referendum at all. I call bullshit on that.

(17-03-2014 04:05 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  If by most corrupt you mean, I dunno, second-worst in the OECD, then I guess that's valid.

Compared to Russia? Seriously? Bro, do you even politics?

I don't mean in that way. I mean in a straight-up-invade-other-countries-for-'their-own-good'-and-totally-not-for-our-own-benefit way. I dunno, I think that probably ranks above what any other countries do. Even oppressive dictatorships usually only affect one country (themselves), what America does (selective use of the word 'terrorist', pretending to have the right to police the world, and possibly actively destabilising other countries for it's own benefit) affects several and could go on to affect many more.

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17-03-2014, 05:35 PM (This post was last modified: 17-03-2014 06:10 PM by Chas.)
RE: Crimea Referendum
WTAF is up with TTA? (double post)

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