Critical Thinking: Learned Behavior or Naturally Inclined
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
10-02-2016, 10:02 AM
RE: Critical Thinking: Learned Behavior or Naturally Inclined
I believed in religion exactly as long as I believed in fairy tales - until I was 10 and read the bible. I saw it as a fairy tale.

I think, as long as reasonably functional hardware is there (one doesn't have to be all that intelligent) anyone can learn critical thinking, and being introduced to it as child helps a lot, but one can also arrive there later on one's own.

The issue is that throughout evolution we were well advised to take experiences and stories of others to heart.

The stories of monsters on the other side of the mountain kept us from wandering into a territory ruled by lions for example.

The stories of auntie Helen eating the red berries and being cured of warts may or may not have ended up being useful, but yes, people did discover items with medicinal properties in their environment and benefit.

The stories of gods were amazing entertainment (remember, stories were all there was for entertainment) and also helped in keeping proper social behavior ingrained.

And don't forget that religion is the opium of the masses - you can take that quite literally as the repetition of rites and also praying releases dopamine and/or serotonin in the brain. It's addictive.

So, while we are naturally curious and want to get to the bottom of things, we are also wired to listen to stories and anecdotes. And we are susceptible to addictions.

And there you have cognitive dissonance.

The advent of free accessibility of actual information will cure this in the long run, I am quite positive about that.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like Dom's post
10-02-2016, 10:29 AM
RE: Critical Thinking: Learned Behavior or Naturally Inclined
(10-02-2016 10:02 AM)Dom Wrote:  The advent of free accessibility of actual information will cure this in the long run, I am quite positive about that.

I'm not quite sure, Radosław Tyrała in his book Everyday Life Without God: A Sociology of Atheism and Unbelief turned eye on polish unbelievers and discovered that despite access to wealth of information and being highly educated some of them still believe in some form of god or "god", souls and all that jazz.

I would say it's more about ability to comprehend and critically examine information than access to it, as without comprehension knowledge will fall pray to woo. Emotional aspect and childhood indoctrination also are important factors in religion staying power.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Szuchow's post
10-02-2016, 10:47 AM
RE: Critical Thinking: Learned Behavior or Naturally Inclined
A change like that would also depend, or at least be greatly helped, by more and more people openly identifying as atheist.

The more people know someone who is atheist, the more real life faces are attached to the word, the more curious people will become about it.

There is a sudden wealth of atheist writings and videos now online and in books, so people can satisfy their curiosity easily.

More people identifying also does away with people sticking with religion for the social aspects, since it will become more and more possible to socialize with other atheists.

That leaves the addictive aspect. I don't think that will ever leave us.

I don't think religion will disappear, but it will be in the minority. And it won't be able to dominate the lives of others.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Dom's post
10-02-2016, 11:04 AM
RE: Critical Thinking: Learned Behavior or Naturally Inclined
(10-02-2016 10:47 AM)Dom Wrote:  A change like that would also depend, or at least be greatly helped, by more and more people openly identifying as atheist.

Probably. But without someone breaking bonds of tradition of church going (occasionally) and declaring oneself believer despite not caring about religion it's hard to even imagine such open declarations.

Also atheists here are equaled with communist and considering country history no one want to be called such. So first number of people must have a reason to end hypocrisy and then have the guts to not care about ostracism. I don't see it happening soon.

(10-02-2016 10:47 AM)Dom Wrote:  There is a sudden wealth of atheist writings and videos now online and in books, so people can satisfy their curiosity easily.

Yes but there is no shortage of apologetic writings too.

(10-02-2016 10:47 AM)Dom Wrote:  More people identifying also does away with people sticking with religion for the social aspects, since it will become more and more possible to socialize with other atheists.

Exactly. But still someone must make a first step and if pedophile scandal didn't really shook the people then what else can do it? One also should remember that many Poles build their self on belief or declaration of it as I have my doubts about sincerity of faith about which hardly anyone know something.

(10-02-2016 10:47 AM)Dom Wrote:  That leaves the addictive aspect. I don't think that will ever leave us.

I don't think religion will disappear, but it will be in the minority. And it won't be able to dominate the lives of others.

It's secularization that we need it appear. When there is no alliance between altar nad the throne religion could only dream about forcing it's taboos onto others.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Szuchow's post
10-02-2016, 11:31 AM
RE: Critical Thinking: Learned Behavior or Naturally Inclined
(10-02-2016 11:04 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(10-02-2016 10:47 AM)Dom Wrote:  A change like that would also depend, or at least be greatly helped, by more and more people openly identifying as atheist.

Probably. But without someone breaking bonds of tradition of church going (occasionally) and declaring oneself believer despite not caring about religion it's hard to even imagine such open declarations.

Also atheists here are equaled with communist and considering country history no one want to be called such. So first number of people must have a reason to end hypocrisy and then have the guts to not care about ostracism. I don't see it happening soon.

(10-02-2016 10:47 AM)Dom Wrote:  There is a sudden wealth of atheist writings and videos now online and in books, so people can satisfy their curiosity easily.

Yes but there is no shortage of apologetic writings too.

(10-02-2016 10:47 AM)Dom Wrote:  More people identifying also does away with people sticking with religion for the social aspects, since it will become more and more possible to socialize with other atheists.

Exactly. But still someone must make a first step and if pedophile scandal didn't really shook the people then what else can do it? One also should remember that many Poles build their self on belief or declaration of it as I have my doubts about sincerity of faith about which hardly anyone know something.

(10-02-2016 10:47 AM)Dom Wrote:  That leaves the addictive aspect. I don't think that will ever leave us.

I don't think religion will disappear, but it will be in the minority. And it won't be able to dominate the lives of others.

It's secularization that we need it appear. When there is no alliance between altar nad the throne religion could only dream about forcing it's taboos onto others.

It has already happened. We are here, aren't we? The information has been composed and published, no? When I was a teen, I thought my parents were Catholics who didn't go to church much. I had no idea atheists existed at all. Hence I didn't identify as such. Not until decades later.

Makes me wonder about my peers - I always managed to find friendships and partnerships where religion simply wasn't mentioned. None of them identified as atheist, the concept wasn't even there. We just didn't go to church or talk about god.

What I am getting at is that there are countless atheists in the closet, and many of them don't even know about atheism. They are not religious. They don't identify as believers to themselves, they lie to the religious surrounding them to avoid conflict.

People in the closet are all ages and walks of life. If they all came out of the closet, everyone would know someone who is atheist.

Enter today's youth - all info is at their fingertips. Most everyone knows the concept of atheism. If their uncle or some famous person or a neighbor identifies as atheist, they will be curious and find out all about it.

There have to be activist atheists to help get the ball rolling. To police the government, to point fingers, to make noise.

We do have separation of government and church - but religious politicians are always pushing the limits. Only a shift in societal evolution is going to put an end to that.

Atheism will start to rise as people come out of the closet and show others it's ok to think that way. Just like it was for societal evolution as it affects gays and women and marihuana - it's important to make noise so others will realize that it's ok to be an atheist.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Dom's post
10-02-2016, 02:28 PM
RE: Critical Thinking: Learned Behavior or Naturally Inclined
(10-02-2016 11:31 AM)Dom Wrote:  It has already happened. We are here, aren't we? The information has been composed and published, no? When I was a teen, I thought my parents were Catholics who didn't go to church much. I had no idea atheists existed at all. Hence I didn't identify as such. Not until decades later.

Reality of country which lived behind Iron Curtain looks different. Here everyone knows what atheism is and who atheist are. Answer is simple - communism. But there is some progress - thanks to the church propaganda those who don't think that unbelievers are commies think that atheist are mad at god or are just believers who believe in nonexistence of deity.

Also there is problem with critical thinking. Former regime was not interested in people who question too much so it didn't learn it. Now it is the same, only content of propaganda changed. Prior experience didn't immunized populace to propaganda, just made them not believe one sort of it.

(10-02-2016 11:31 AM)Dom Wrote:  What I am getting at is that there are countless atheists in the closet, and many of them don't even know about atheism. They are not religious. They don't identify as believers to themselves, they lie to the religious surrounding them to avoid conflict.

People in the closet are all ages and walks of life. If they all came out of the closet, everyone would know someone who is atheist.

Enter today's youth - all info is at their fingertips. Most everyone knows the concept of atheism. If their uncle or some famous person or a neighbor identifies as atheist, they will be curious and find out all about it.

It's not being religious that is the main problem but rather authoritarian culture and Manichean worldview of polish believers. Probably there aren't many devout ones here, but number of hypocrites loving to push religious taboos onto others is quite high.

Also youth too is familiar with concept of atheist but they equal it with marxist-leninist or someone mad at space wizard. Also quite a few of young Poles see catholicism as kind of vaccine for Islam and part of national identity. Only catholic is true Pole, defender of christian realm and motherland loving patriot. In such atmosphere atheism has no chance.

And I still didn't touch the economic problems which too aren't irrelevant when it comes to religiosity.

(10-02-2016 11:31 AM)Dom Wrote:  There have to be activist atheists to help get the ball rolling. To police the government, to point fingers, to make noise.

There was even a political party. After first failure in elections it started to blame voters for not being anti-clerical enough. It were elections to the European Parliament where anti-clericalism mean shit. This example should show how deluded are Poland so called activists who can't see that fault is theirs.

(10-02-2016 11:31 AM)Dom Wrote:  We do have separation of government and church - but religious politicians are always pushing the limits. Only a shift in societal evolution is going to put an end to that.

Your country may have separation of gov and church but it isn't the case with Poland. It's no theocracy to be sure, but line is blurred. Grounds and buildings are sold to the church for 1% of true value or even as it was called "returned to rightful owner" without right of appeal, priests opinion on subject of abortion, in vitro or same sex marriages matter more than that of people, there is more religion in school than physics for example (that was when I went to school). Now with Law and Justice party ruling the country church will gain even more sway so I can not say that we have separation of church and gov.

Alliance between altar and the throne is strong and as long as politics will think that majority of Poles are catholics nothing would change. And considering that even atheists christen their children statistics will still show over 90% of catholics in country so there will be no change for Poland.

(10-02-2016 11:31 AM)Dom Wrote:  Atheism will start to rise as people come out of the closet and show others it's ok to think that way. Just like it was for societal evolution as it affects gays and women and marihuana - it's important to make noise so others will realize that it's ok to be an atheist.

Some day it might indeed rise but not in the country so irrational than it don't have left wing party despite being poor and in need of some counter balance for right wing nationalist scum.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-02-2016, 03:14 PM
RE: Critical Thinking: Learned Behavior or Naturally Inclined
(10-02-2016 02:28 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(10-02-2016 11:31 AM)Dom Wrote:  It has already happened. We are here, aren't we? The information has been composed and published, no? When I was a teen, I thought my parents were Catholics who didn't go to church much. I had no idea atheists existed at all. Hence I didn't identify as such. Not until decades later.

Reality of country which lived behind Iron Curtain looks different. Here everyone knows what atheism is and who atheist are. Answer is simple - communism. But there is some progress - thanks to the church propaganda those who don't think that unbelievers are commies think that atheist are mad at god or are just believers who believe in nonexistence of deity.

Also there is problem with critical thinking. Former regime was not interested in people who question too much so it didn't learn it. Now it is the same, only content of propaganda changed. Prior experience didn't immunized populace to propaganda, just made them not believe one sort of it.

(10-02-2016 11:31 AM)Dom Wrote:  What I am getting at is that there are countless atheists in the closet, and many of them don't even know about atheism. They are not religious. They don't identify as believers to themselves, they lie to the religious surrounding them to avoid conflict.

People in the closet are all ages and walks of life. If they all came out of the closet, everyone would know someone who is atheist.

Enter today's youth - all info is at their fingertips. Most everyone knows the concept of atheism. If their uncle or some famous person or a neighbor identifies as atheist, they will be curious and find out all about it.

It's not being religious that is the main problem but rather authoritarian culture and Manichean worldview of polish believers. Probably there aren't many devout ones here, but number of hypocrites loving to push religious taboos onto others is quite high.

Also youth too is familiar with concept of atheist but they equal it with marxist-leninist or someone mad at space wizard. Also quite a few of young Poles see catholicism as kind of vaccine for Islam and part of national identity. Only catholic is true Pole, defender of christian realm and motherland loving patriot. In such atmosphere atheism has no chance.

And I still didn't touch the economic problems which too aren't irrelevant when it comes to religiosity.

(10-02-2016 11:31 AM)Dom Wrote:  There have to be activist atheists to help get the ball rolling. To police the government, to point fingers, to make noise.

There was even a political party. After first failure in elections it started to blame voters for not being anti-clerical enough. It were elections to the European Parliament where anti-clericalism mean shit. This example should show how deluded are Poland so called activists who can't see that fault is theirs.

(10-02-2016 11:31 AM)Dom Wrote:  We do have separation of government and church - but religious politicians are always pushing the limits. Only a shift in societal evolution is going to put an end to that.

Your country may have separation of gov and church but it isn't the case with Poland. It's no theocracy to be sure, but line is blurred. Grounds and buildings are sold to the church for 1% of true value or even as it was called "returned to rightful owner" without right of appeal, priests opinion on subject of abortion, in vitro or same sex marriages matter more than that of people, there is more religion in school than physics for example (that was when I went to school). Now with Law and Justice party ruling the country church will gain even more sway so I can not say that we have separation of church and gov.

Alliance between altar and the throne is strong and as long as politics will think that majority of Poles are catholics nothing would change. And considering that even atheists christen their children statistics will still show over 90% of catholics in country so there will be no change for Poland.

(10-02-2016 11:31 AM)Dom Wrote:  Atheism will start to rise as people come out of the closet and show others it's ok to think that way. Just like it was for societal evolution as it affects gays and women and marihuana - it's important to make noise so others will realize that it's ok to be an atheist.

Some day it might indeed rise but not in the country so irrational than it don't have left wing party despite being poor and in need of some counter balance for right wing nationalist scum.

Yes, there are a lot of cultural differences. A different belief base. I was mostly talking about the US.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Dom's post
10-02-2016, 03:23 PM
RE: Critical Thinking: Learned Behavior or Naturally Inclined
(10-02-2016 03:14 PM)Dom Wrote:  Yes, there are a lot of cultural differences. A different belief base. I was mostly talking about the US.

Would be surprised if there were no differences. But even when compared to other countries of former Soviet bloc Poland is let's say unique.

As for US you might be right. I do not know situation there.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Szuchow's post
10-02-2016, 04:06 PM (This post was last modified: 10-02-2016 06:57 PM by carol.)
RE: Critical Thinking: Learned Behavior or Naturally Inclined
(09-02-2016 11:16 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  I would like to know what you think about the mind and critical thinking skills. Are they intrinsic to some and learned to others or are they natural to humans but can be overridden by indoctrination at least for a while? As in some people have it and some just don't.

There are people like me who've never bought into the god delusion.
There are some who've bought it for a while and left it at young adulthood.
There are some who come to it late in life, usually because their indoctrination was early and the family pressure extreme.
Obviously there are many who never come to critical thinking when it comes to religion.

If it's just learned behavior, how have some never believed the dogma, even at a very early age?

Also, is religious dogma the only BS you didn't buy into?

I never bought into the racist thing. My parents were racist and vocal about it but I never agreed. I had black friends from kindergarten up. I wasn't allowed to go to their house or them to mine but we were friends all through school. I also had Hispanic friends in high school. People were people, some nice, some not.

The sexist crap didn't wash either. I never felt "less than" because I was a girl but maybe that was because I was a tomboy and did anything the boys could do.

Are these things also critical thinking issues? Have you always been a critical thinker?

I found another interesting abstract which shows the relation between intelligence and religiosity:


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23921675

One thing I have noticed on atheist threads is that there are a lot of well educated and bright atheists. I think that people with intelligence and the personality traits that encourage them to be able to live with ambiguity do not need to have absolute answers for everything. They are not as likely to be influenced by random ideas without thinking about them. And I think that strong willed people are also able to come to their own conclusions about things. If people are able to think clearly, question their own beliefs, do some research and be willing to change their minds when they are wrong, it encourages critical thinking.


As for me, I liked the idea of religion when I was young, because I wanted to feel safe. But when considering different religions- ( and I did consider very carefully, one personality trait I have is to jump into research and learn very carefully everything I can about out a topic) I was unable to find a religion that could possibly be true. I did attend a UU church for a while just for companionship and to be in the choir. They were OK with me being atheist.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like carol's post
10-02-2016, 05:24 PM
RE: Critical Thinking: Learned Behavior or Naturally Inclined
(10-02-2016 12:41 AM)Banjo Wrote:  I don't know the answer to this question. All I know is this. I thought religion was bullshit when I was 4 or 5. The first time I encountered it.

I have no idea what that means.

Yabut. You were living in the bush hunting kangaroo when you were like 8.

#sigh
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes GirlyMan's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: