Criticising Islam
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
28-10-2013, 02:54 AM
Criticising Islam
Hello everyone,

We are very good at criticising Christianity, because we just have so many sources and so much informative feed-back.

It is different with Islam, however. Mostly, our arguments are based on stereotypes, manipulative media and impressions we have from terrorist attacks.

I have a very good Quran at home, with an index that allows me to quickly identify passages that refer to certain topics. Also, it is a translation with remarks on how a word could have been translated otherwise or what additional meaning that word has in arabic.


I am offering you this service: If you want to know what the Quran says about something, you can ask me and I can look it up and tell you which passages are relevant for that particular topic. You can then read the english translation for yourself here.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Youkay's post
28-10-2013, 04:49 AM
RE: Criticising Islam
That could come in handy. However, I don't even know all the things I don't know about the Quran and Islam.

My first question would be this: Would a plain reading of an English translation the Quran present the same obvious problems as a plain reading of the Bible? E.g. that Yahweh was a bloodthirsty monster in the O.T.

The second would be: Do the translation remarks in your version appear to be "honest" or do they try to explain away problems an ordinary reader might have with a literal translation? For example, the NIV and LB translations of the Bible choose different words than other translations in some places in order to reduce or eliminate contradictions and/or atrocities and make it appear to be a better book even if there may not be any scholarly reason for the substitution.

Thanks.

"I feel as though the camera is almost a kind of voyeur in Mr. Beans life, and you just watch this bizarre man going about his life in the way that he wants to."

-Rowan Atkinson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-10-2013, 05:23 AM
RE: Criticising Islam
(28-10-2013 02:54 AM)Youkay Wrote:  Hello everyone,

We are very good at criticising Christianity, because we just have so many sources and so much informative feed-back.

It is different with Islam, however. Mostly, our arguments are based on stereotypes, manipulative media and impressions we have from terrorist attacks.

I have a very good Quran at home, with an index that allows me to quickly identify passages that refer to certain topics. Also, it is a translation with remarks on how a word could have been translated otherwise or what additional meaning that word has in arabic.


I am offering you this service: If you want to know what the Quran says about something, you can ask me and I can look it up and tell you which passages are relevant for that particular topic. You can then read the english translation for yourself here.

It's not so much about the Quran, but rather, a personal story of Wafa Sultan in her book A God Who Hates. It speaks about how she feels that Islam hates women. Have you read it? What do you think of it?

I understand that our media isn't always speaking favorably about Islam, and we are hardened by the terrorists, but everything that I've read about it (that isn't from the headlines) is a religion consisting of incredibly short fused men. The abuse of women is simply criminal.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Cathym112's post
28-10-2013, 05:29 AM (This post was last modified: 28-10-2013 05:49 AM by Youkay.)
RE: Criticising Islam
Quote:My first question would be this: Would a plain reading of an English translation the Quran present the same obvious problems as a plain reading of the Bible? E.g. that Yahweh was a bloodthirsty monster in the O.T.

The second would be: Do the translation remarks in your version appear to be "honest" or do they try to explain away problems an ordinary reader might have with a literal translation? For example, the NIV and LB translations of the Bible choose different words than other translations in some places in order to reduce or eliminate contradictions and/or atrocities and make it appear to be a better book even if there may not be any scholarly reason for the substitution.


The Quran is in general much less bloodthirsty than the Bible. But then again, the Bible is difficult to beat in its bloodthirstiness.

The comments are sometimes explanatory to put it in a historical context or to elucidate the meaning of an arabic word more accurately. Sometimes they provide interpretations, but I rather do the thinking part myself Big Grin

Also, I gave you a link on where you can find and read the passages for yourself in english. That would be another reference point.


For instance, a lot of people talk about the Jihad. The At-Tawbah speaks about it. It starts with how a Muslim shall not fail his god and kill polytheists. Then it says, if a polytheist wants protection to hear the word of God, grant him that. If he converts, let him be. Because God is righteous, merciful and forgiving.

I think he is a hypocrite.

Quote:Fight them; Allah will punish them by your hands and will disgrace them and give you victory over them and satisfy the breasts of a believing people

Actually, "them" refers to polytheists, who have committed crimes by averting people from the way of God. But it is easy to take this and apply it to monotheists as well.

This surat is mostly about who to fight, who to not fight and how hell and heaven are like.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-10-2013, 05:35 AM
RE: Criticising Islam
As with christianity, there are extreme interpretations and moderate ones.

Malaysia (where I spend much of my time) is extremely moderate Laughat

Women tend to support the idea that their males are the provider and quite enjoy being looked after. I argue that is abdication of responsibility and my colleagues say:
"Yes, isn't it great Smile "

Youkay,
What has your version got to say about beating disobedient wives?
Does it have the "with a feather" addition?

Ooops! Sorry. Not 'addition'. Not allowed to add. Just to reinterpret.

It's in Chapter 4, IIRC.

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-10-2013, 05:38 AM
RE: Criticising Islam
(28-10-2013 05:23 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  It's not so much about the Quran, but rather, a personal story of Wafa Sultan in her book A God Who Hates. It speaks about how she feels that Islam hates women. Have you read it? What do you think of it?

There are a few Surats that talk about the right of women. Al-Baqarah is one of them. Particulary 2-187,228,229,232,233,237,282.

Let's have a look. I am looking myself now, because I haven't read it yet.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-10-2013, 05:40 AM
RE: Criticising Islam
(28-10-2013 05:35 AM)DLJ Wrote:  What has your version got to say about beating disobedient wives?
Does it have the "with a feather" addition?

Ooops! Sorry. Not 'addition'. Not allowed to add. Just to reinterpret.

It's in Chapter 4, IIRC.

If you were more specific, I would find it faster.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-10-2013, 05:47 AM
RE: Criticising Islam
What I get from the Al-Baqarah passages that I quoted earlier is:

- God only speaks to men and tells men what to do
- men are superior to women
- divorce is OK (I am so surprised!) wow, it even says to be graceful, and give half of what you have to them and such things. Lol. Quran is actually quite OK when it comes to divorce Big Grin
- in jurisdiction a man is worth two women

Fascinating Shocking

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-10-2013, 06:30 AM
RE: Criticising Islam
(28-10-2013 05:35 AM)DLJ Wrote:  What has your version got to say about beating disobedient wives?
Does it have the "with a feather" addition?

Ooops! Sorry. Not 'addition'. Not allowed to add. Just to reinterpret.

It's in Chapter 4, IIRC.

So I have checked chapter 4. Women and women's right are mentioned in 4-1,4,7,11,12,19,20,21,24,25,33,34,127,128,176. I read in between to make sure not to miss anything.

Up until 4-34, it is very civilized. Laws for inheritance, marriage and divorce are put in place. There are obvious objections such as women are not as worthy as men, but the laws in themselves are quite OK.

First thing I found about that men are authority and may strike disobedient women:
4-34 Wrote:So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

Funny thing here in the english translation:
4-40 Wrote:Indeed, Allah does not do injustice, [even] as much as an atom's weight; while if there is a good deed, He multiplies it and gives from Himself a great reward.

In my translation, there is no such thing as atom.

And nothing else about beating women in this Surat, DLJ. I am sorry to disappoint. Maybe you should go back to your source and find out exactly where it is that you were talking about.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-10-2013, 06:45 AM
RE: Criticising Islam
The Vagueness of the quran (christian spell checker thinks quran don't exist) makes it a better candidate for a belief system.
If I find God it would be Islam , Something created something over a vague number of years, something happened, Noahs boat was of an undisclosed size, something something don't eat pig.
Bacon would be worth whips for strips though.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: