Criticising Islam
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28-10-2013, 07:00 AM
RE: Criticising Islam
You're hilarious Big Grin

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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28-10-2013, 07:11 AM
RE: Criticising Islam
I heard that translations simply won't due, you have to read it in arabic.
Admittedly all I know of Islam is of Ayaan Hirsi Ali's autobiography Infidel. The news about muslims marching to pass legislation to stop criticisms of Islam and also about the call for blood in response to cartoons. Also a few others that don't paint a very pleasing picture.

"I don't have to have faith, I have experience." Joseph Campbell
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28-10-2013, 07:28 AM
RE: Criticising Islam
(28-10-2013 06:30 AM)Youkay Wrote:  ...
First thing I found about that men are authority and may strike disobedient women:
4-34 Wrote:So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.
...
And nothing else about beating women in this Surat, DLJ. I am sorry to disappoint. Maybe you should go back to your source and find out exactly where it is that you were talking about.

You didn't disappoint. That was the bit: 4-34.

My version says 'beat' rather than 'strike' and adds [with a feather].

"from whom you fear arrogance" is more general than the copy I have which mentions 'disobedience'... specifically relating to leaving the house (or tent, I guess) without permission.

The divorce part is in there for those men who are fed up with their aging property. Divorce is OK when you find someone more appealing and you've already fulfilled your quota of 4 wives.

I mean, who wants an iPhone3 when there are so many better models around?

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28-10-2013, 07:43 AM
RE: Criticising Islam
@Grizzlysnake
Unfortunately, I do not speak arabic, so I can't read the original. But reading two translated versions and comparing has got to be better than reading an autobiography and subjective perceptions.

@DLJ
My translation says that "women who disobey", so it is in accordance with what you said. I don't agree with your specific association however. I think your conclusion in this is 1) biased and 2) an understatement.

It says "women who disobey" the husband, and the husband is an authority in marriage. That means that if the woman does anything which disagrees with the husband's orders, it is punishable by beating.


It is only your assumption that the divorce part is in there for men who are fed up with their property. However, the regulations described for a divorce according to the Quran are quite OK by todays standards. it says that women also have a right to divorce and remarry. Of course the enforced regulations are not as modern, but still they are nothing to focus criticism on.

Our goal (or my goal rather Smile) is to achieve an understanding of the quran to be able to criticize it as efficiently as I can criticize the bible. Bias and assumptions won't do us a favor in that aspect.

I think 4-34 is quite strong, and I am happy for that find.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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28-10-2013, 07:57 AM
RE: Criticising Islam
What is the basis for sharia law ? You know, the stoning of adulterers and all that ? 'Cos that seems like something which gets a lot of airtime in the media.

Also Islamic treatment of gays and atheists IIRC has been less than stellar in the past, is there a basis for that in the Quran ?

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28-10-2013, 07:59 AM
RE: Criticising Islam
Quran, Bible, whatever.

Who gives a fuck what's in them?

They are each based on the assumptions that there is a god and that the book gives us information on the divine.

Since there is no evidence of either, we can simply dismiss them as 'truth'.

Let's talk about what really matters - how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-10-2013, 08:05 AM
RE: Criticising Islam
Obviously we can easily dismiss them for ourselves. But I want to be able to criticize reasonably so I can convince people from giving up on their superstition.

Morondog, I will try to find something that might refer to adultery and to gays. I don't think it will say anything about atheists, because back then I don't think it was possible to be atheist. The people back then knew nothing!

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28-10-2013, 08:11 AM
RE: Criticising Islam
(28-10-2013 08:05 AM)Youkay Wrote:  Obviously we can easily dismiss them for ourselves. But I want to be able to criticize reasonably so I can convince people from giving up on their superstition.

Morondog, I will try to find something that might refer to adultery and to gays. I don't think it will say anything about atheists, because back then I don't think it was possible to be atheist. The people back then knew nothing!
Find what they say about leaving the faith, I'll wait. Drinking Beverage

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28-10-2013, 10:29 AM
RE: Criticising Islam
(28-10-2013 08:05 AM)Youkay Wrote:  Obviously we can easily dismiss them for ourselves. But I want to be able to criticize reasonably so I can convince people from giving up on their superstition.

Morondog, I will try to find something that might refer to adultery and to gays. I don't think it will say anything about atheists, because back then I don't think it was possible to be atheist. The people back then knew nothing!

Atheists, no.

Apostates? Which is necessarily a superset of atheists?

Yeah, I remember that being a fun topic indeed.

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28-10-2013, 10:35 AM
RE: Criticising Islam
Islamic extremists are just Theist who don't skip over the bad parts of bible.
Howcan a genuine Christian go a week without stoning a woman or killing one of their kids. God must be ranting like a mofo.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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