Criticising Islam
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28-10-2013, 10:47 AM (This post was last modified: 28-10-2013 11:03 AM by grizzlysnake.)
RE: Criticising Islam
(28-10-2013 07:43 AM)Youkay Wrote:  @Grizzlysnake
Unfortunately, I do not speak arabic, so I can't read the original. But reading two translated versions and comparing has got to be better than reading an autobiography and subjective perceptions.

@DLJ
My translation says that "women who disobey", so it is in accordance with what you said. I don't agree with your specific association however. I think your conclusion in this is 1) biased and 2) an understatement.

It says "women who disobey" the husband, and the husband is an authority in marriage. That means that if the woman does anything which disagrees with the husband's orders, it is punishable by beating.


It is only your assumption that the divorce part is in there for men who are fed up with their property. However, the regulations described for a divorce according to the Quran are quite OK by todays standards. it says that women also have a right to divorce and remarry. Of course the enforced regulations are not as modern, but still they are nothing to focus criticism on.

Our goal (or my goal rather Smile) is to achieve an understanding of the quran to be able to criticize it as efficiently as I can criticize the bible. Bias and assumptions won't do us a favor in that aspect.

I think 4-34 is quite strong, and I am happy for that find.
I'm sorry, aren't you doing exactly the same? She was raised Muslim in Somalia, studied and read the Qur'an in its official language and she was in the thick of the muslim world moving place to place before seeking refuge in Holland after escaping an arranged marriage. Then when she starts criticising islam death threats galore. Serious ones, a note stuck on the body of a dear friend of hers with a knife. Not a day goes by that she has to live under armed protection. Its important to look into your own studies, all for it. Just don't downplay the experiences of other's who you know nothing about, okay?Smile

"I don't have to have faith, I have experience." Joseph Campbell
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28-10-2013, 11:16 AM
RE: Criticising Islam
Is there a suggestion or a rule in Qur'an on how the "infidels" should be treated?

. . . ................................ ......................................... . [Image: 2dsmnow.gif] Eat at Joe's
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28-10-2013, 12:50 PM
RE: Criticising Islam
(28-10-2013 11:16 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  Is there a suggestion or a rule in Qur'an on how the "infidels" should be treated?

If you've got an infection the prescription is a battalion of the faithful applied to the affected area for a period of several weeks... never fail cure Tongue

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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28-10-2013, 01:59 PM
RE: Criticising Islam


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28-10-2013, 02:05 PM
RE: Criticising Islam


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28-10-2013, 09:22 PM
RE: Criticising Islam
I am not doing exactly the same. I am offering you a service in which we can probe the Quran together, instead of simply replying to your questions to the best of my knowledge and relieving you of your duty to think for yourselves.

I am generally very critical towards the wisdom of others and expect people to be critical to my wisdom. Therefore, if I have the means I educate myself first before engaging in conversation.

In this case, we definitely have the means, because Quran is a well preserved scripture that we can simply analyse and understand.

Please don't have the impression that I am dismissing Wafa Sultan in any ways. After watching the first provided video that Cathym provided, I think that she is very sophisticated from the way she speaks and differentiates. It was good to have heard her speaking and I will definitely watch more videos of her and Mr Wilders (what is his first name?) in the future.

Still, if you do not do the research for yourself, you can accuse Islam of being violent or based on hatred and so on. You can also pick individual threats and crimes committed. But you can not back up your accusations by any means except for your reference to Wafa Sultan, which is very weak.

I still didn't have the opportunity to look up infidelity, adultary and leaving the faith. I will let you know when I have done so.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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29-10-2013, 04:56 AM
RE: Criticising Islam
(28-10-2013 09:22 PM)Youkay Wrote:  I am not doing exactly the same. I am offering you a service in which we can probe the Quran together, instead of simply replying to your questions to the best of my knowledge and relieving you of your duty to think for yourselves.

I am generally very critical towards the wisdom of others and expect people to be critical to my wisdom. Therefore, if I have the means I educate myself first before engaging in conversation.

In this case, we definitely have the means, because Quran is a well preserved scripture that we can simply analyse and understand.

Please don't have the impression that I am dismissing Wafa Sultan in any ways. After watching the first provided video that Cathym provided, I think that she is very sophisticated from the way she speaks and differentiates. It was good to have heard her speaking and I will definitely watch more videos of her and Mr Wilders (what is his first name?) in the future.

Still, if you do not do the research for yourself, you can accuse Islam of being violent or based on hatred and so on. You can also pick individual threats and crimes committed. But you can not back up your accusations by any means except for your reference to Wafa Sultan, which is very weak.

I still didn't have the opportunity to look up infidelity, adultary and leaving the faith. I will let you know when I have done so.

I am not backing up any accusations. I'm not making any other than observing the oppression of women right now. Living in NYC - I see plenty of women in jihabs and tethered to eachother while the males walk around unfettered and unencumbered.

I also rely on the testimony of people who have lived it. I don't need to be intimately familiar with the book to critise what it's message is. Familiar, yes. Intimately familiar I don't think so. I pay less attention to what Islam says...I'm looking at what Islam does.

My approach of the bible is the same. I've read the entire thing, but haven't memorized it. I dot attack the passages - rather - I attack the logic behind it.

While our arguing styles are different, yours is not more valid than mine and vice versa.
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29-10-2013, 05:23 AM
RE: Criticising Islam
Things I found about what to do with atheists:

Quote:2-193: And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)

Quote:3-56:"As to those who disbelieve, I will punish them with a severe torment in this world and in the Hereafter, and they will have no helpers."
It would surprise a few to learn that the context of this verse is "Those who disbelieve in Jesus"

Quote:3-91:Indeed, those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers - never would the [whole] capacity of the earth in gold be accepted from one of them if he would [seek to] ransom himself with it. For those there will be a painful punishment, and they will have no helpers.

While I was reading, I stumbled upon this verse:
Quote:3-76: But yes, whoever fulfills his commitment and fears Allah - then indeed, Allah loves those who fear Him.
Shocking
And this:
Quote:3-101: And how could you disbelieve while to you are being recited the verses of Allah and among you is His Messenger? And whoever holds firmly to Allah has [indeed] been guided to a straight path.
lol, silly question

Anyway, let's continue on our daily instructions on how to deal with atheists
Quote:8-12: [Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip."

Quote: 2-6,7: Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe. Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them is a great punishment.
Hold on... Allah made it impossible for them to believe and punishes them for not believing? Shocking



And so on. I think we get the big picture. There are many more, but I think I will leave it at this. If I find something particularly strong, I will post it.


Here is something I found while reading through.

A theological encouragement for today's suicide bombers:
Quote:4-74: So let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. And he who fights in the cause of Allah and is killed or achieves victory - We will bestow upon him a great reward.
Now, if you bring up this verse, I would assume it will be defended by opposing that suicide bombing is not the cause of Allah. Religion is generally self-contradictory. Therefore, there will be possibilities how this is a cause of Allah, and how this isn't. Personally, I wouldn't use it in a debate, but it is good to know.

And this
Quote:9 38,39: O you who have believed, what is [the matter] with you that, when you are told to go forth in the cause of Allah , you adhere heavily to the earth? Are you satisfied with the life of this world rather than the Hereafter? But what is the enjoyment of worldly life compared to the Hereafter except a [very] little. If you do not go forth, He will punish you with a painful punishment and will replace you with another people, and you will not harm Him at all. And Allah is over all things competent.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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29-10-2013, 05:34 AM
RE: Criticising Islam
(29-10-2013 04:56 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(28-10-2013 09:22 PM)Youkay Wrote:  Still, if you do not do the research for yourself, you can accuse Islam of being violent or based on hatred and so on. You can also pick individual threats and crimes committed. But you can not back up your accusations by any means except for your reference to Wafa Sultan, which is very weak
While our arguing styles are different, yours is not more valid than mine and vice versa.

I'm afraid you misunderstood me. I didn't mean to say that talking about the current situation is not valid. In fact, it is very essential to draw attention to the mistreatment of women, the inequality, the violence, etc.
However, it is very easy for a Muslim to counter that: "They are living the religion wrong" And therein, nothing you say or present would sway them from their position.

All I meant is that it would be more effective to criticize the religion itself instead of the people who live it. I mean, that is exactly what we are doing when dealing with Christians and has proven most effective.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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29-10-2013, 05:47 AM
RE: Criticising Islam
The punishment for adultery/infidelity/sex without marriage:
Quote:24-1: The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah , if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.
Quote:24-4: And those who accuse chaste women and then do not produce four witnesses - lash them with eighty lashes and do not accept from them testimony ever after. And those are the defiantly disobedient,

Stoning of women is not in Quran but in one of the Hadith. Not a good argument, if you want to criticize the Quran itself. Hundred lashes are severe enough though. And stoning is a tremendously strong way to criticize the Hadith and the arabic traditions.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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