Cyanobacteria, our little hero
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02-03-2014, 12:10 AM (This post was last modified: 02-03-2014 12:24 AM by rampant.a.i..)
Cyanobacteria, our little hero
(01-03-2014 11:40 PM)toadaly Wrote:  
(01-03-2014 11:37 AM)Godexists Wrote:  exactly. That excludes evolution above species.

No it doesn't. "Species" is an idea we've invented for the purpose of categorization. It doesn't bound nature, it's an attempt to describe it in simplified terms.

This guy. He speaks as if "The Origen of Species" doesn't describe how new species arise, and yet wants to lecture us on molecular biology.

Godexists, at least read the Wiki on evolution if you're going to be lecturing about it.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

Or at least skim the Speciation part UC Berkeley article I keep linking you, before embarrassing yourself further.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary...0_0/evo_40

Ignorance of basic principles is doing nothing to bolster your plagiarized talking points. At least keep up the appearance of understanding the theory you're using to argue your points.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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02-03-2014, 12:18 AM (This post was last modified: 02-03-2014 12:22 AM by Deltabravo.)
RE: Cyanobacteria, our little hero
So, if God made all this and some big asteroid hits us and wipes us all out, then I guess God is an idiot!

It seems a cockeyed notion that if you get to a point where scientific research can explain the majority of things which we once had no idea how to explain, but you don't know or don't understand where it is leading, you search around for some ancient texts in which someone claims to have met god at the top of a mountain, and that is the answer to everything.

Godexists, what do you make of John which says that "God" IS the "logos"? I say that the NT is telling us that knowledge is the key to everything, not a hairy old man on a throne in the sky.

What sayest thou?

Lecture_preist
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02-03-2014, 02:57 AM
RE: Cyanobacteria, our little hero
(01-03-2014 06:39 PM)Godexists Wrote:  
(01-03-2014 05:28 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  Simply put, the first cyanobacteria mutated from prokaryotic bacteria.

So what survival advantage should that mutation provide ? Prokaryotic bacterias were doing perfectly fine without photosynthesis.

It allowed the cyanobacteria to harness a new source of energy without having to compete with the prokaryotic bacteria.
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02-03-2014, 03:24 AM
RE: Cyanobacteria, our little hero
Evidence that Godexists is trolling:
  • Does not read / watch or make reference to information given to him
  • Repeats his argument without any attempt at change even when its flaws are pointed out
  • His understanding of certain things are demonstrably wrong but he won't acknowledge it because his argument relies of those assumptions.
  • Ignores any answers provided to his questions
  • Arrogant tone used to rile other posters into responding

Conclusion: Won't ever change his position. Continuing to argue with him will mean that you end up repeating yourself, drowning out your earlier more thoughtful and less frustrated posts that other people may find useful.

Even though I must thank you Godexists. For several years I've been trying to crack a thermodynamic paradox in my spare time concerning how life started (which I am not going to mention here in front of the children christians). I was on the verge of cracking it but was having trouble finding ways to explain it. Your example of cyanobacteria was exactly what I needed to clarify my thoughts.

I now need to extend my abstract model to demonstrate it in action and I am now hopeful that I can get a paper published this year.
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02-03-2014, 04:03 AM
RE: Cyanobacteria, our little hero
(01-03-2014 11:14 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  
(01-03-2014 11:12 PM)Godexists Wrote:  Hoyle and Wickramasinghe, p. 24.

“The trouble is that there are about two thousand enzymes, and the chance of obtaining them all in a random trial is only one part in (10^20)2,000 = 10^40,000, an outrageously small probability that could not be faced even if the whole universe consisted of organic soup. If one is not prejudiced either by social beliefs or by a scientific training into the conviction that life originated on the Earth [by chance or natural processes], this simple calculation wipes the idea entirely out of court.”

Quoting from an argument supporting Panspermia even further weakens your "irreducible complexity" argument.

You're simply adding time to the abundance of time fast-adapting bacteria could have developed "complex" organic systems before their appearance in Earth's geological record.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandra_Wickramasinghe

[Image: e9uvyvem.jpg]

Grab a few more handfuls of these.

It won't strengthen your argument, but it might make you feel better.

Panspermia is just one of the many esoteric ideas in order to explain the origin of life by natural means. Thats just a philosophical explanation, but without scientific evidence. The quote makes clear, that just a lot of time will not do the job. Information is required. Complex, codified, specified information. Where did it come from ? And, since we are at the subject, i keep asking : what selection pressure was there to make photosynthesis ??
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02-03-2014, 04:05 AM
RE: Cyanobacteria, our little hero
(01-03-2014 11:40 PM)toadaly Wrote:  
(01-03-2014 11:37 AM)Godexists Wrote:  exactly. That excludes evolution above species.

No it doesn't. "Species" is an idea we've invented for the purpose of categorization. It doesn't bound nature, it's an attempt to describe it in simplified terms.

Ok. We can substitute " species " with philogeny . Sleepy
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02-03-2014, 04:06 AM
RE: Cyanobacteria, our little hero
(02-03-2014 12:07 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  The universe is infinite

How do u know ? And if it is, how do you deal with the second law ?
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02-03-2014, 04:12 AM
RE: Cyanobacteria, our little hero
(02-03-2014 12:18 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Godexists, what do you make of John which says that "God" IS the "logos"? I say that the NT is telling us that knowledge is the key to everything, not a hairy old man on a throne in the sky.

I agree. A hairy old man is the fantasy product of atheists. There is no hairy old man in the sky. There is a God, which i think has following atributes :

God is the supreme ( greatest ) being
personal
a trinity
spirit
without a beginning, and without a end ( eternal )
Self-existent
Self-sufficient
Sovereign
Transcendent
Simple
Wise
Wrath
love
just
Omniscient
Omnipotent ( which must be defined )
Omnipresent
immutable
holy
righteous
mercyful
unequaled
inscrutable
unfathomable
unsearchable
Immutable
Impartial
Incomprehensible
Infinite
Jealous
Longsuffering

And a eternal " logos " fits perfectly scientific evidence. There must have been a eternal God without beginning, ( no, that concept isn't special pleading ) , beccause from absolutely nothing, nothing arises ( not even quantum particles ) , and information was required as well....... Thumbsup
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02-03-2014, 04:17 AM
RE: Cyanobacteria, our little hero
(02-03-2014 02:57 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(01-03-2014 06:39 PM)Godexists Wrote:  So what survival advantage should that mutation provide ? Prokaryotic bacterias were doing perfectly fine without photosynthesis.

It allowed the cyanobacteria to harness a new source of energy without having to compete with the prokaryotic bacteria.

cyanobacteria are prokaryots. why did they have to compete with other bacterias?
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02-03-2014, 04:30 AM
RE: Cyanobacteria, our little hero
(02-03-2014 04:17 AM)Godexists Wrote:  
(02-03-2014 02:57 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  It allowed the cyanobacteria to harness a new source of energy without having to compete with the prokaryotic bacteria.

cyanobacteria are prokaryots. why did they have to compete with other bacterias?

The population of prokaryotic bacteria will have grown in size until it became limited by the available energy source. Cyanobacteria harnessed a new energy source and therefore a new population was able to grow.
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