Cyanobacteria, our little hero
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01-03-2014, 07:29 PM
RE: Cyanobacteria, our little hero
(01-03-2014 05:27 PM)Godexists Wrote:  
(01-03-2014 05:18 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I know what's written. That fact that you don't know how hydrogen and hydrogen gas really exist in nature is simply more evidence of your utter ignorance of the subject.

you might elucidate what hydrogen has to do with the subject ?

What does hydrogen have to do with photosynthesis ?
LMAO.
Not even YOU are THAT stupid.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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01-03-2014, 07:43 PM (This post was last modified: 01-03-2014 07:47 PM by Chas.)
RE: Cyanobacteria, our little hero
(01-03-2014 06:39 PM)Godexists Wrote:  
(01-03-2014 05:28 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  Simply put, the first cyanobacteria mutated from prokaryotic bacteria.

So what survival advantage should that mutation provide ? Prokaryotic bacterias were doing perfectly fine without photosynthesis.

The creation of a new food/energy source is an obvious advantage.

I suggest you study the Lenski experiments.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-03-2014, 08:00 PM
RE: Cyanobacteria, our little hero
(01-03-2014 06:54 AM)Godexists Wrote:  
(28-02-2014 10:04 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The inability to describe one evolutionary pathway does not discredit the theory.

When a road leads to a dead end, its rational to search for another solution.

Except you haven't demonstrated it leads to a dead end.

(01-03-2014 06:54 AM)Godexists Wrote:  
(28-02-2014 10:04 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  E Coli bacteria only took 22 years to evolve the ability to metabolize citric acid in an oxygen rich environment. Evolution works exceedingly quick on the microbial level.

thats adaptation, or micro evolution.

Micro-evolution + Micro-evolution.....+ Micro-evolution = Macro-evolution
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01-03-2014, 08:20 PM (This post was last modified: 01-03-2014 08:32 PM by rampant.a.i..)
Cyanobacteria, our little hero
(01-03-2014 07:43 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(01-03-2014 06:39 PM)Godexists Wrote:  So what survival advantage should that mutation provide ? Prokaryotic bacterias were doing perfectly fine without photosynthesis.

The creation of a new food/energy source is an obvious advantage.

I suggest you study the Lenski experiments.

He selectively quoted, and ignored this before.

OP seems to believe organisms only adapt in response to environmental stressors, and denies genetic drift.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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01-03-2014, 10:28 PM
RE: Cyanobacteria, our little hero
(01-03-2014 05:23 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  
(01-03-2014 04:59 PM)Godexists Wrote:  How about you just admit, you have no clue ??

Which part do you disagree with?

"Why would bacteria adapt to thrive in an anaerobic habitat and produce aerobic waste?" Is a nonsensical question.

Its not what i asked. Again :

i don't know what selection pressure there should be for ancient bacterias, that were perfectly fine to live in a anaerobic envyronment, to evolve photosynthesis.

i might clarify : Oxygen would have damaged the DNA of the bacterias, so why would they have invented Photosynthesis, which would have produced a waste product, that would kill them ??
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01-03-2014, 10:31 PM
RE: Cyanobacteria, our little hero
(01-03-2014 07:29 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(01-03-2014 05:27 PM)Godexists Wrote:  you might elucidate what hydrogen has to do with the subject ?

What does hydrogen have to do with photosynthesis ?
LMAO.
Not even YOU are THAT stupid.

NO. what does it have to do with protons.......

keep on trolling.....
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01-03-2014, 10:45 PM (This post was last modified: 01-03-2014 10:53 PM by Godexists.)
RE: Cyanobacteria, our little hero
(01-03-2014 08:00 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Except you haven't demonstrated it leads to a dead end.

i actually have. right in my first post.

1. They have ATP synthase nano-motors. How could ATP synthase “evolve” from something that needs ATP, manufactured by ATP synthase, to function? Absurd “chicken-egg” paradox!

If you don't know what a ATP synthase motor is, you might educate yourself :

http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t1439-atp-synthase

thats one of the tinyest nano motors around, and it generates ATP, the fuel in the cells. Without it, nothing would happen, we would not be here. Its a irreducible complex system.

Dead end no. 1 for evolution.

Cyanobacterias have the enzyme Rubisco : Evolution cannot account for the assembly and activation of it.

Dead end no. 2 for evolution.

Cyanobacterias fix nitrogen into ammonia through nitrogenase. The Nitrogenase enzyme is a irreducible complex system.

What is irreducible complexity ?

A single system which is composed of several interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, and where the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning. (Darwin's Black Box p39 in the 2006 edition)

Intelligent design advocate William Dembski gives this definition:

A system performing a given basic function is irreducibly complex if it includes a set of well-matched, mutually interacting, nonarbitrarily individuated parts such that each part in the set is indispensable to maintaining the system's basic, and therefore original, function. The set of these indispensable parts is known as the irreducible core of the system.[9]

Now lets see the nitrogenase enzyme :

http://www.ebi.ac.uk/interpro/entry/IPR000392

Nitrogen fixing bacteria possess a nitrogenase enzyme complex that catalyses the reduction of molecular nitrogen to ammonia [PMID: 2672439, PMID: 6327620, ]. The nitrogenase enzyme complex consists of two components:

Component I is nitrogenase MoFe protein or dinitrogenase, which contains 2 molecules each of 2 non-identical subunits.

Component II is nitrogenase Fe protein or dinitrogenase reductase, which is a homodimer. The monomer is encoded by the nifH gene [PMID: 6327620].

the subunits are unique , and cannot be used in other proteins :

http://www.biologie.uni-halle.de/microbi...sem_soboh/

The active site of [NiFe]-hydrogenase has one carbon monoxide and two cyanide ligands coordinated to the iron atom, a feature that is to date unique in biology.

Since the Nitrongenase enzyme is composed of two subunits, set of well-matched, mutually interacting, nonarbitrarily individuated parts such that each part in the set is indispensable to maintaining the system's basic it can be considered irreducible complex

Dead end no. 3 for evolution.

Furthermore :

If the whole Photosystem I or II and the whole Z-Scheme are not in place in photosynthesis , Chlorophyill would have no function. What would it harvest light for, if there are no machines to use the captured energy for work ? And, if Chlorophyll would absorb the green light as well, and the full spectrum, and become more efficient, all leaves would be ..... ?? black !! No distinction between the soil and leaves would be possible . And how could Chlorophyll be made without ATP ? So the marvellous ATP synthase motor would have to be fully in place working, and interconnected with the other parts, in order to function. And what function would it have, if not supplied with Protons ? To do so, the thylakoid membrane would have to be fully formed as well, to form a proton gradient, and so the mechanisms to release protons and move them from the outside to the inside. That is a interdependent system. If one mechanism, one part, one enzyme or protein complex is missing, the whole photosynthesis process does not function.

Thats no. 4,5,6,7 etc..... dead end roads..... oh yeah !!

(01-03-2014 06:54 AM)Godexists Wrote:  Micro-evolution + Micro-evolution.....+ Micro-evolution = Macro-evolution

unsupported claim. Not backed up by scientific evidence.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23876611

The genome has traditionally been treated as a Read-Only Memory (ROM) subject to change by copying errors and accidents. In this review, I propose that we need to change that perspective and understand the genome as an intricately formatted Read-Write (RW) data storage system constantly subject to cellular modifications and inscriptions. Cells operate under changing conditions and are continually modifying themselves by genome inscriptions. These inscriptions occur over three distinct time-scales (cell reproduction, multicellular development and evolutionary change) and involve a variety of different processes at each time scale (forming nucleoprotein complexes, epigenetic formatting and changes in DNA sequence structure). Research dating back to the 1930s has shown that genetic change is the result of cell-mediated processes, not simply accidents or damage to the DNA. This cell-active view of genome change applies to all scales of DNA sequence variation, from point mutations to large-scale genome rearrangements and whole genome duplications (WGDs). This conceptual change to active cell inscriptions controlling RW genome functions has profound implications for all areas of the life sciences.
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01-03-2014, 10:50 PM (This post was last modified: 01-03-2014 10:55 PM by rampant.a.i..)
Cyanobacteria, our little hero
(01-03-2014 10:28 PM)Godexists Wrote:  
(01-03-2014 05:23 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  Which part do you disagree with?

"Why would bacteria adapt to thrive in an anaerobic habitat and produce aerobic waste?" Is a nonsensical question.

Its not what i asked. Again :

i don't know what selection pressure there should be for ancient bacterias, that were perfectly fine to live in a anaerobic envyronment, to evolve photosynthesis.

i might clarify : Oxygen would have damaged the DNA of the bacterias, so why would they have invented Photosynthesis, which would have produced a waste product, that would kill them ??

You're mixing up Cyanobacteria inhabiting an anaerobic environment with anaerobic bacteria.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaerobic_organism

And none of the adaptations of Cyanobacteria scream "Irreducible Complexity!"

We're talking billions of years, and you were provided a link you ignored about bacterial adaptation to antibiotics in a 60-70 year period.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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01-03-2014, 10:57 PM
RE: Cyanobacteria, our little hero
The problem with all this is in the use of words rather than the science. We are descended from apes and we, by some accounts, still have elements of birdsong in our language and we are trying to figure out the origins of the universe...

There is one theory that there are only so many ways that molecules can arrange themselves so if the universe is infinite, then things must repeat themselves, and eventually one would, if one could, discover that molecules have combined to produce everything that can be produced, somewhere.

The simple way to look at this is that these tiny organisms are made up of a combination of molecules and, given infinite time and space, they form an organism, not by "chance" but because the concept of infinity means that probability theory means they "must". That is what probability theory is. Einstein
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01-03-2014, 10:58 PM
RE: Cyanobacteria, our little hero
(01-03-2014 10:28 PM)Godexists Wrote:  i might clarify : Oxygen would have damaged the DNA of the bacterias, so why would they have invented Photosynthesis, which would have produced a waste product, that would kill them ??


Don't bother. More proof of your ignorance. Oxygen radicals damage things, not Oxygen.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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