D-Day
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
08-06-2016, 01:06 PM
RE: D-Day
(08-06-2016 12:34 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  I think their loss at Guadalcanal reflects not only the strain on their resources, but also perhaps the largest loss they suffered at Midway: not four fleet carriers, but rather, hundreds of experienced aircrew.

Actually, Midway was more of a desaster because of loss of Carriers and planes, not so much regarding pilots. Many of them survived. Total loss of aircrew at Midway was 110. At Santa Cruz they lost 145, amongst those being 23 experienced leaders too!

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-06-2016, 01:50 PM (This post was last modified: 08-06-2016 01:58 PM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: D-Day
(08-06-2016 01:06 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(08-06-2016 12:34 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  I think their loss at Guadalcanal reflects not only the strain on their resources, but also perhaps the largest loss they suffered at Midway: not four fleet carriers, but rather, hundreds of experienced aircrew.

Actually, Midway was more of a desaster because of loss of Carriers and planes, not so much regarding pilots. Many of them survived. Total loss of aircrew at Midway was 110. At Santa Cruz they lost 145, amongst those being 23 experienced leaders too!

Do those numbers include the mechanics who keep the planes flying? Those too are aircrew ... and very important. Several hundred went down with those ships.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-06-2016, 01:55 PM
RE: D-Day
The resources to rebuild the ships would have still been there. And there were 57 fuel storage tanks, each with their own fire supprression systems and berms to contain total failure of the tanks. The bunker fuel had to be heated to over 100 degrees F to start burning. It was too viscous to seep out very much from the berms. And the record of Japanese dive bombers meant that a probable direct hit score would be about eight tanks. The fighters didn't have the guns to do more than scratch the paint. Their 20mm ammo had superquick fuzes to explode against aluminum airframes, not .5 inch think steel. (That's the top, the bottom level of the tanks were 1.5" thick.) Even a direct hit by the largest bomb the IJN carried on their dive bombers wouldn't guarantee a ruptured tank, and they all had floating caps to keep air and rainwater out of them.

As for the destruction of the shops: The Italians systematically destroyed a base on the Red Sea when they retreated and USN specialists had it running at full speed in a month. That's sabotage on the ground, not bombs dropped from the air.

So, no the IJN didn't have a chance to knock out Pearl Harbor. They knew this, at Eta Jima, the Japanese Annapolis, they were taught "You do not attack a fortress with warships."
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Gawdzilla's post
08-06-2016, 02:00 PM
RE: D-Day
(08-06-2016 01:50 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(08-06-2016 01:06 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Actually, Midway was more of a desaster because of loss of Carriers and planes, not so much regarding pilots. Many of them survived. Total loss of aircrew at Midway was 110. At Santa Cruz they lost 145, amongst those being 23 experienced leaders too!

Do those numbers include the mechanics who keep the planes flying? Those too are aircrew ... and very important.

The common definition of aircrew does not include mechanics. Mechanics are way less important than actual flight crew. They can be replaced much easier.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-06-2016, 02:25 PM (This post was last modified: 08-06-2016 02:35 PM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: D-Day
(08-06-2016 02:00 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(08-06-2016 01:50 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Do those numbers include the mechanics who keep the planes flying? Those too are aircrew ... and very important.

The common definition of aircrew does not include mechanics. Mechanics are way less important than actual flight crew. They can be replaced much easier.

I would disagree. A non-flying airplane is a big paperweight, no matter how many flying crew are available. And the skill to diagnose and repair carrier planes in that demanding environment doesn't come easy. But having said that, even those 110 aircrew you mention were largely veterans of the Kido Butai's six-month run, and represented a fantastic loss. Whether you want to call maintenance crew aircrew or not, the fact is that large numbers of them were lost at Midway, and that loss was felt.

Have you looked into the inefficiencies of the Japanese pilot-training programs? The Americans rotated experienced pilots home to fill a training billet as a atter of policy; the Japanese kept their aces in combat insofar as they could, much like the Germans. Training washed out large numbers, graduating small numbers, making each flier that much more valuable.

A nice overview of several of these issues can be read here: http://www.historynet.com/japans-fatally...r-ii-2.htm
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-06-2016, 02:26 PM (This post was last modified: 08-06-2016 02:33 PM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: D-Day
Another interesting read:

http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/F/i/Fighter_Pilots.htm
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-06-2016, 03:58 PM
RE: D-Day
Thump's quite right about pilot and crew losses overwhelming the Japanese more than anything else in the Pacific theatre of war.

In late 1944, the IJN managed to sail a massive carrier based on the Yamato-class superbattleships, with dive-bomber-proof deck armor and battleship belt armor plating (rebuilt as a reaction to the loss of fleet carriers at Midway), and had no aircrews to put on its deck. It launched carrying only a squad of suicide rocket-planes. The carrier aircraft were supposed to join the ship "later", but the Japanese by this time were having trouble scraping together even the most green flight crews by that point, and even if they had been on the ship, she would still have been vulnerable to the well-trained American pilots in the same we saw in the "Great Marianas Turkey Shoot". But unlike her sister ships, the superbattleships Yamato and Musashi, she did not fall to aircraft attacks but to a submarine.

Shinano also had major design flaws resulting from the hasty conversion from a BB to a CV, including faulty seams, failed watertight compartments, and a lack of proper damage control equipment, which resulted in her total loss when struck by four torpedoes from the U.S.S. Archerfish.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes RocketSurgeon76's post
08-06-2016, 04:26 PM
RE: D-Day
Taiho, one of the few CVs that the Japs managed to complete during the war was sunk by a single torpedo from the USS Albacore. The general consensus was that the ship was lost due to the ineptitude of the damage control party. Leaking aviation fuel spread fumes throughout the ship which turned her into a gigantic Fuel-Air bomb. She duly exploded.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Minimalist's post
08-06-2016, 04:32 PM
RE: D-Day
Quote:Indeed. Between the Kokoda Trail and the Guadalcanal campaign, their Pacific resources were already strained severely.

They also had to support troops in the Aleutians, in the Philippines where a partisan insurgency was beginning, in Burma/India agains the British, and China. Add that to the pre-war garrisons of the Marshalls, Marianas, Gilberts, Truk, Iwo Jima, etc. and the logistical overload becomes apparent.

They lacked the industrial base and the transport capacity. Nor could they properly escort those ships they did send out.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Minimalist's post
08-06-2016, 09:19 PM
RE: D-Day
(08-06-2016 04:26 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  Taiho, one of the few CVs that the Japs managed to complete during the war was sunk by a single torpedo from the USS Albacore. The general consensus was that the ship was lost due to the ineptitude of the damage control party. Leaking aviation fuel spread fumes throughout the ship which turned her into a gigantic Fuel-Air bomb. She duly exploded.

Lexington lost a couple of hundred seamen. Yorktown sank, with minimal loss of life. Wasp took a few hundred down with her. Hornet had almost all its crew saved. Those sinkings were spread out over four months, and had plenty of survivors.

Akagi, Kaga, Soryu, and Hiryu were lost in a day. What damage control they learnt, they took to the bottom.

Experience plays a much larger role in military efficiency than any civilian understands.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Thumpalumpacus's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: